China depends less on Russian Technology

This is absolutely no surprise. As China's R&D develops and matures, naturally arms imports from Russia (or elsewhere) would decrease.
The only area where Russian military industry still has distinct tech advantage over China's, IMO, is aircraft engines.

Its Good To Know That Chinese R&d Efforts Paying Divident. All The Best.

China basically got rid of dependence on Russian weapons, but I think that China still needs Russian technology, the two sides had in fact still negotiable price.
It seems like to buy things on, the Chinese people have a lot of things do not need to buy, so the Russian people began to door selling.
I think China should buy S400, granite (basalt?any one know the Russia call?) Cruise missiles, modified 092-SSBN to launch this type of missile.

I don't think Granit is up for sale, its one of those crown jewels that won't be offered anywhere. I think China has better luck trying to create a vertical sub launched version of the YJ-62. Xia class don't have that much of a life to make a serious modification after its last refit. You are better off with an 094 variant.

The most likely things China would buy from the Russians are jet engines, but even here the gap is closing or will be closed soon. There is nothing in the Army and Navy that would benefit from any Russian equipment.

There is nothing in the Army and Navy that would benefit from any Russian equipment.

The PLAN would certainly benefit from access to S-300FM series naval SAMs, as they can have a range of up to 200 km depending on the missile fitted! The Russians are the gold standard as far as SAM systems are concerned. I'd personally be amused to see PLAN Kilo SS's refitted to fire the Shkval as well, but that's just me.

As far as the PLA is concerned I do agree with you, the Chinese defense establishment has moved beyond the need for foreign systems in that regard. But continued investment in Russian SAM systems, particularly for naval use, would be a very good idea and of significant benefit to the PLAN.

China is, however, most certainly moving in the right direction. With systems like the J-10, DF-31, and HQ-9, they have demonstrated the ability to develop and produce weapon systems that are on par with the bulk of what the West has to offer.

I can't agree though. The S-300 has its own faults. For example, it lacks the 360 degree coverage of the HHQ-9 system used on the 052C. Large long range missiles don't do well intercepting a smaller more evasive missile (for antimissile interception, its a good rule that intercepting missile must be smaller than the target missile). The 5V55 and 48N6E are too big for their britches against something like a Harpoon, hence why the smaller 9M96E is offered.

Using the 9M96E, a 48 cel ship like the 051C can potentially hold as many as 144 missiles, with 4 9M96E fitting into the cannister for a single 48N6E. But the range of this missile is much shorter, at least a half to a third, or even a quarter. Probably looking at 50 to 75km here. But regardless, you really cannot do anti sea skimmer interception until the sea skimmer passes through the radar horizon, and that means around 40 to 50km.

The modern trend for ship born AAW is to put the radars as high as possible. This gives you superior "look down" over the radar horizon, extending the engagement range of the radar against sea skimmers, as compared to an arrangement lower in the ship. The radar on the superstructure typified by AEGIS is passe, and so is the revolving radar pedestal style of the RIF-M. Better to put a smaller radar on top of the highest mast, even if the smaller radar has less range. This arrangement has better peer down over the radar horizon. The Euro ships are taking to this---Daring class, Horizon class, all the new MEKO frigate and destroyer designs like the Saschen, F100 and De Provincien.

There is some indication that the PLAN may follow the European trend. In this case, the RIF-M would not serve them, but rather a modified version of the HHQ-9 or HH-16 with the arrays set on a top of an integrated mast in a four faced crown.

The whole Kilo event for the PLAN has become a big mess. These subs were ordered before the Song got perfected in its definitive form in 2004. The PLAN spent a lot of money on a sub, that compared to the Song, doesn't appear to support as much modern electronics, or have the electrical power for it; doesn't have passive flank sonars, which is necessary for long range detection, and have problematic antiship missiles (Klub). Its true that the PLAN have learned a lot of modern torpedo design with all the torpedoes that came with the Kilos, but they have already learned some of that with the previous purchase of Kilos. Each Kilo as it turns out, is even smaller than a Song, and the smaller size means, there is less sound absorbtion in the hull, it will carry less batteries for modern sensors and command centers, and has less armaments, its going to be more cramped and less comfortable for the crew in the long run, which may end up with more stress and fatigue.

An indication of the PLAN's confidence on the Russian support for the Kilo is that the four earlier Kilos may have already been refitted as of July 2007, but not on a Russian shipyard as the Russians hoped. I won't find it surprising that the four earlier Kilos may have been modded to use Chinese torpedos and AshMs instead. The PLAN has intimate knowledge of the Kilos to do the refits. Four of the original Russian Kilos were in fact sold to Chinese scrapyards.

There are somethings in the Russian arsenal that may be interesting for the PLAN. The Klub is of course one of them, but these are having their share of problems. The Skval is interesting but they don't offer you any range advantage over a heavyweight torpedo. I think the PLAN has preferred to choose the "smart" over "speed" doctrine, which is why they never seriously pursued supersonic AshMs beyond the Sunburn, and why they elected to use a wire guided heavyweight torpedo design like the Yu-6, instead of ASROCs like the Stallion and Vodapod. The PLAN like the whole PLA, is emphasizing on what is the country's national industrial strength, which is electronics and software, as opposed to brute force technologies which the Russians excel, such as jet and rocket engines, and missile design.

I think the PLA can still benefit by buying more Mi-171 helicopters though. Buy a few things just to keep Putin happy.

I disagree to an extent with the article. Even though China is not buying complete systems like SU 30s which result in alot of media attention. There is still significant trade in components and sub systems and other incomplete systems. There is also joint collabrations in the various fields of science. If we do not hear or see them in the media does not mean trade has come to a halt.

I am basing my view largely on the belief both countries keep their purcurements or exports a secret. Unless it is a complete weapon system like su 30 or naval destroyer. For the Russians highlighting the trade would bring publicity.

Heres an article i read in Popular Mechanics. and written by Joe Pappalardo I put it here because it would apply to the Russians as well as the Chinese, perhaps giving their respective Generals a cause for concern??

This month Lockheed Martin released a 280-word statement from its radar research headquarters in New Jersey announcing a breakthrough test of an advanced radar platform. And while the tech world shrugged, people watching the evolution of radar saw another step for a system that could have a dramatic effect on future world affairs, from American missile-tracking platforms in the Czech Republic to the ship-based defense of the Taiwan Straits.

The new radar system, called digital beamforming, could become a game-changing technology that may help defeat an overwhelming attack on U.S. warships by missiles. It could also answer one of the chief complaints about ballistic missile defense systems—that decoys or other countermeasures could easily hide a warhead and spoof interceptors. If placed on satellites, new spy and environmental monitoring missions become possible from orbit.

All this comes as an improvement to an existing system called phased-array radar. While traditional radars spin their faces to seek targets, phased-array radars guide a reflective beam electronically from a stationary panel. They can track things by moving the main beam very quickly, within microseconds, at numerous targets. But the phased array systems cannot seamlessly track multiple targets at the same time without losing resolution. Lockheed’s improvement on these radars allows true simultaneous tracking, with each target followed by a dedicated radar beam.

Digital beamforming, then, combines the cutting edges of antenna and digital technologies: A radar array digitizes the signals it receives, preserving all the incoming information. This data is then used to form as many radar beams as necessary to track as many objects as appear. The crucial advantage to this approach is the ability to confidently cover a vast area with a single system.

Lockheed for the first time has been testing a digital beam array to locate and track live targets—in this case, commercial and military aircraft coming in and out of the Philadelphia area. “The hard part was how we combined all the data ... to form the individual beams,” Scott Smith, program manager for the radar system at Lockheed, tells PM. Commercially available high-speed digital electronics and advanced signal processors have become advanced enough to allow this data processing to occur, and that in turn has enabled digital beamforming to become practical for use outside a lab.

One key component to all phased-array radars is transmit/receive modules. These inch-long modules increase the power of the transmitted signal, ready the system to receive responses and steer the beam to find targets. Lockheed engineers have used new materials in digital beamforming t/r modules that make them tough enough to hold up to harsh use. By using heat-tolerant silicon carbide in the modules, more power can be pumped through them, giving the radar a longer range and a very precise targeting ability.

Digital beamforming radars will likely find their first homes on ships that track missile threats to U.S. fleets. Those threats will come from ballistic launches hundreds of miles away or from high-speed missiles launched from submarines or warplanes. The Russian government has been busy selling sea-skimming, antiship missiles to China that are designed to overwhelm the U.S. fleet’s radars, so the ability to track multiple, fast-moving threats could become vital in the Taiwan Straits. But a digitized phased array radar can handle many incoming signals at once, and should be able to discern real threats from bits of metal or shaped decoy balloons.So somewhere a Chinese admiral is frowning at Lockheed’s news, and a Taiwanese general is smirking.

The development could even fuel Russian paranoia over its nuclear deterrent and make its leadership more intransigent about U.S. radar bases, ostensibly established to protect Europe from Iranian missiles, on its border in Eastern Europe. One way to beat radar systems is to overwhelm them with signals, including decoys.

Therefore, beamforming can change missile defense equations in favor of the defenders. “Russian analysts examining the [missile defense] system would conclude that, at some unforeseen future time ... it might be able to engage many hundreds of targets,” a 2007 Arms Control Association report noted. “Such possibilities, however remote they would seem, would certainly conjure up apocalyptic threats to Russia’s national survival.”

Maybe not so remote: If the radar ground stations that the U.S. wants to establish in the Czech Republic are upgraded with beamforming technology, they could spot Russian missiles just after launch, follow as many missiles as could be put into the air, track inbound warheads amid intentionally scattered decoys and shoot down the real threats. The balance of power in Europe could shift as Russia loses its deterrent edge.

You can well imagine Russian attachés writing grim reports that include the comments of Carl Bannar, vice president and general manager of Lockheed Martin’s Radar Systems, who promised in a recent statement to “bring a huge radar technology leap to next generation multi-mission radars.” Lockheed’s Smith said that the use of this radar in ground-based missile defense platforms is one of many targets for sales to the U.S. military.

Another great place for a powerful radar is on a satellite. Space-based radar can be used in a wide variety of ways—to track moving military or intelligence targets, to determine subtle shifts that precede earthquakes or landslides, or to form the backbone of space navigation systems using GPS satellites as reference points from high orbits.

The new radar system, called digital beamforming, could become a game-changing technology that may help defeat an overwhelming attack on U.S. warships by missiles. It could also answer one of the chief complaints about ballistic missile defense systems—that decoys or other countermeasures could easily hide a warhead and spoof interceptors. If placed on satellites, new spy and environmental monitoring missions become possible from orbit.

All this comes as an improvement to an existing system called phased-array radar. While traditional radars spin their faces to seek targets, phased-array radars guide a reflective beam electronically from a stationary panel. They can track things by moving the main beam very quickly, within microseconds, at numerous targets. But the phased array systems cannot seamlessly track multiple targets at the same time without losing resolution. Lockheed’s improvement on these radars allows true simultaneous tracking, with each target followed by a dedicated radar beam.

Digital beamforming, then, combines the cutting edges of antenna and digital technologies: A radar array digitizes the signals it receives, preserving all the incoming information. This data is then used to form as many radar beams as necessary to track as many objects as appear. The crucial advantage to this approach is the ability to confidently cover a vast area with a single system.

Lockheed for the first time has been testing a digital beam array to locate and track live targets—in this case, commercial and military aircraft coming in and out of the Philadelphia area. “The hard part was how we combined all the data ... to form the individual beams,” Scott Smith, program manager for the radar system at Lockheed, tells PM. Commercially available high-speed digital electronics and advanced signal processors have become advanced enough to allow this data processing to occur, and that in turn has enabled digital beamforming to become practical for use outside a lab.

One key component to all phased-array radars is transmit/receive modules. These inch-long modules increase the power of the transmitted signal, ready the system to receive responses and steer the beam to find targets. Lockheed engineers have used new materials in digital beamforming t/r modules that make them tough enough to hold up to harsh use. By using heat-tolerant silicon carbide in the modules, more power can be pumped through them, giving the radar a longer range and a very precise targeting ability.

Digital beamforming radars will likely find their first homes on ships that track missile threats to U.S. fleets. Those threats will come from ballistic launches hundreds of miles away or from high-speed missiles launched from submarines or warplanes. The Russian government has been busy selling sea-skimming, antiship missiles to China that are designed to overwhelm the U.S. fleet’s radars, so the ability to track multiple, fast-moving threats could become vital in the Taiwan Straits. But a digitized phased array radar can handle many incoming signals at once, and should be able to discern real threats from bits of metal or shaped decoy balloons.So somewhere a Chinese admiral is frowning at Lockheed’s news, and a Taiwanese general is smirking.

The development could even fuel Russian paranoia over its nuclear deterrent and make its leadership more intransigent about U.S. radar bases, ostensibly established to protect Europe from Iranian missiles, on its border in Eastern Europe. One way to beat radar systems is to overwhelm them with signals, including decoys.

Therefore, beamforming can change missile defense equations in favor of the defenders. “Russian analysts examining the [missile defense] system would conclude that, at some unforeseen future time ... it might be able to engage many hundreds of targets,” a 2007 Arms Control Association report noted. “Such possibilities, however remote they would seem, would certainly conjure up apocalyptic threats to Russia’s national survival.”

Maybe not so remote: If the radar ground stations that the U.S. wants to establish in the Czech Republic are upgraded with beamforming technology, they could spot Russian missiles just after launch, follow as many missiles as could be put into the air, track inbound warheads amid intentionally scattered decoys and shoot down the real threats. The balance of power in Europe could shift as Russia loses its deterrent edge.

You can well imagine Russian attachés writing grim reports that include the comments of Carl Bannar, vice president and general manager of Lockheed Martin’s Radar Systems, who promised in a recent statement to “bring a huge radar technology leap to next generation multi-mission radars.” Lockheed’s Smith said that the use of this radar in ground-based missile defense platforms is one of many targets for sales to the U.S. military.

Another great place for a powerful radar is on a satellite. Space-based radar can be used in a wide variety of ways—to track moving military or intelligence targets, to determine subtle shifts that precede earthquakes or landslides, or to form the backbone of space navigation systems using GPS satellites as reference points from high orbits

As I recall, PLAN already has shkval. It was bought along with the Kilos. There are numerous (unconfirmed) articles talking about either reverse-engineering or improvement of the shkval by Chinese R&D.

Originally Posted by Baibar of Jalat

I disagree to an extent with the article. Even though China is not buying complete systems like SU 30s which result in alot of media attention. There is still significant trade in components and sub systems and other incomplete systems. There is also joint collabrations in the various fields of science. If we do not hear or see them in the media does not mean trade has come to a halt.

I am basing my view largely on the belief both countries keep their purcurements or exports a secret. Unless it is a complete weapon system like su 30 or naval destroyer. For the Russians highlighting the trade would bring publicity.

Actually the component purchases are not secret. There has been a number of component purchases in the past, such as ship radars. But even these are coming to a halt. The Russians have every reason to highlight the trade for their own marketing purposes.

Also some of the trade are not with the Russians but Ukrainians (ship turbine engines) and other former Soviet republics. For example, the tech for the Skval lies in Kazakhstan, not Russia. Unlike the Russians, people like the Ukrainians and Belarussians are not as selective as to what they can and cannot export to China.

One by one, the windows for component purchases are being closed. For example, the IRST for the Su-27 and Su-30. Its entirely localized now for the J-11B.

Digital beamforming radars will likely find their first homes on ships that track missile threats to U.S. fleets. Those threats will come from ballistic launches hundreds of miles away or from high-speed missiles launched from submarines or warplanes. The Russian government has been busy selling sea-skimming, antiship missiles to China that are designed to overwhelm the U.S. fleet’s radars, so the ability to track multiple, fast-moving threats could become vital in the Taiwan Straits. But a digitized phased array radar can handle many incoming signals at once, and should be able to discern real threats from bits of metal or shaped decoy balloons.So somewhere a Chinese admiral is frowning at Lockheed’s news, and a Taiwanese general is smirking.

Has China ever felt secure up against the US that it would be in an arrogant position to be destroyed by this news? Sort of irrelevent unless the US is planning to attack first. Time is on China's side unless you're one to believe that any potential adversary of the US doesn't have the intellectual capability to develop and/or counter this without Lockheed Martin's help. But then that kind of limited thinking is why the alarm always seems to come from the other side surpised by developments in China.

Another thing to consider is the role of Russian weapons in the domestic procurement programs.

How quickly would the Chinese have perfected the 039G and introduced the 039A design without buying the Kilos?

How quickly would the HQ-9 have been fielded without purchasing the S-300PMUs?

J-11Bs? ZBD-97s? LS-500Js? Powerplants for the FC-1 and the J-10? Newly-unveiled anti-aircraft systems? How about the SAMs on 052Bs?

My point is, even though these Russian systems are becoming increasingly outshined by their Chinese counterparts, they have served and still serve an integral role in the whole scheme of things. The acqusition of these systems not only filled the avoid before domestic systems had rolled out, they also accelerated the R&D process for future platforms. IMO, China got every penny she paid for from these deals.

Actually the Song has very little in detail that is in relation to the Kilo. It can be perfected without using the Kilo as a technical reference. The same can be said of the Yuan. There are so many technical details that differ greatly between the Song/Yuan and the Kilo that any implied technological genetic relationship is not there. The entire 039 class has a lot more to do with Western sourced technologies, such as the German engines and the French inspired (the designs are indigenous) sonars. The only thing the Yuan has in common with the Kilo is the nose, but then a whole bunch of subs have similar nose designs too. Once you start looking at the limber holes, the sail design, the plane and fin configurations, the proportions, everything becomes seriously different. The AIP system for the Yuan runs on a Stirling principle, which you have to look to Sweden for inspiration. Russia's first attempt at AIP is based on fuel cell technology, which is German derived. Given China's connections to the Germans, its not likely China's fuel cell technologies would be inspired from the Russians.

The problem is that the Russians have run out of things to sell to the Chinese for the Chinese to model from. The Chinese actually went ahead on a number of things. For example, the Chinese have put their A-50 derived AWACS into operational service with electronic steering phase array radars and the Russians have not even completed their own yet with phase array.

Russia's most advanced SSK is the Amur/Lada. Its also the first one to have flank sonars, which only brings it to the same level as the Song already did years ago. Given the fact that the Yuan which is launched earlier is also bigger, the Yuan would have certain advantages in its design the Lada lacks. Not to mention the Lada has not finished its trials yet, but the Yuan has.

Another Russian inspired system where China has gone ahead is the HH-16. Although it seems inspired from the Shtil, the Chinese have already put them into VLS form and that into operational service, when the Russians don't even have a working system of the Shtil VLS.

And when you look at all the new PLAN ships now, they all look modern, clean and stealthy. The Sovs look like dinosaurs when set next to them. I seriously doubt that the Udaloys or a modernized Krivak like the Talwars have anything like the RCS of the Jiangkai II.

The Russians now have to look for gaps in the Chinese armament spectrum. Among such gaps are helicopters, hence the Mi-171 and the Kamovs are still good sales to China, though you can forget about the attack helicopters with China having the WZ-10. The Irbis is also interesting but towards the turn of the decade, I don't think China would be pursuing a PESA. Some of the Russian concepts are still interesting. The modernized Sunburn using Tarantuls, even though they look like dinosaurs compared to a Houbei, can make good use of China's large Sunburn inventory. The Project 20380 corvette for me is a model of what a PLAN corvette or littoral combat ship should be, although I think it's too expensive.

In many ways, Russia's nuclear submarines have a depth of more experience in design than China's, although the relationship between Chinese nuclear submarines and Russian are vastly overstated by analysts (they in fact have little in common other than broad features like double hulls). China can still learn from the Russians, but surprisingly, the Chinese are not approaching them, given that Rubin have said they were never approached by the Chinese for advisement. Well not surprisingly actually because in some ways, China's nuclear sub fleet is also meant as deterrent against Russia's nuclear forces; the Xia was a Cold War artifact that was meant against the Russians, not the US. And the Russians know that, which is why this region of technology is not open to sale. One particular area is where the Russians have semi-mastered Lead Bismuth cooled reactors, which they used on the Alfa class. This particular type of reactor has superior power to density output over conventional Pressurized Water Reactors.

Does not matter really. China is buying so much oil from Russia that Russia is becoming rich on that, and the Russians might as well use the petrodollars to beef up their own forces.

Originally Posted by crobato

Does not matter really. China is buying so much oil from Russia that Russia is becoming rich on that, and the Russians might as well use the petrodollars to beef up their own forces.

I think that's the correct attitude. The wrong attitude when we look at the current and past state of military transfers between China and Russia is to complain about how lousy the Russian systems are and boost about how great China's systems are. For one, those Soviet platforms, like the Su-27s and the Sovremennys, are relics of the cold war, and just are beginning to be surpassed by Chinese systems being introduced 20-30 years later. Two, don't forget the state of affairs between the mid-90s through 2004 in the Taiwan Strait. Without these old workhorse weapons, which is really the only credible conventional deterrent that China had, who knows what the consequences might have been.

Should the day come when Taiwan is unified, these Russian platforms will receive their proper recognization for serving China at its weakest moment.