SinoDefence Forum

PanAsian

Interesting to see this post on Strategypage. I tend to think Strategypage toes the American propaganda line with regards to China, and it used to hype the China threat a lot. But the recent less hawkish approach by the US administration seems to have prompted this more accurate, in my opinion, assessment:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htw.../20051120.aspx

China's Misrepresented Military Power
November 20, 2005: China’s military build-up has been discussed a great deal, often with alarm from some quarters. Yet, how much truth is there to the rumors of growing Chinese military power? In the past, opponents have been built up in the media, but when the shooting started, they have turned out to be nowhere near their media-built reputation (see the Republican Guard prior to Desert Storm in 1991 for a classic example). China does seem like a potential
opponent in a major war. In the past decade, two Chinese generals have made threats to use nuclear weapons against the United States. A Chinese spy ring was recently unearthed in Los Angeles. How much is China’s military build up real? Is it even the biggest military on the block in Asia?

China is clearly trying to modernize its forces. Major purchases include, from Russia, the Su-27 family of fighters, Kilo-class submarines, and Sovremenny-class destroyers. China has also been building new classes of destroyers, including one, the Type 52C, which is arguably on par with the American Arleigh Burke-class destroyers. Other ships are entering service, including the Jiangkai/Ma An Shan-class frigates and the Yuan-class submarine. China’s navy and air force are numerically large. However, this is an old force. Many of the destroyers, frigates, and submarines currently in service are state of the art – for 1960. The Chinese air force will have large numbers of J-7 and J-8 fighters, which are older designs.

Two other countries are competitors with China for the position of being the top power in Asia – India and Japan. Both countries are also carrying out major modernization programs, particularly involving their fleets and air forces. Both are already far ahead of China in qualitative terms of having capable naval and air forces.

India has operated carriers for decades, having initially acquired INS Vikrant in 1961. Vikrant was decommissioned in 1997. Since then, India has acquired a second carrier, the Viraat. It also finalized a deal to acquire the Admiral Gorshkov from Russia. The Gorshkov will be renamed Vikramaditya when it enters service in 2008. India is also building a carrier, and is reportedly trying to acquire the recently-decommissioned HMS Invincible. India is also building a second group of Delhi-class destroyers and a modified variant of the Talwar-class destroyers. India is adding large numbers of Su-30MKI Flankers to its air force, and is also looking to acquire a new multi-role fighter, possibly the F-18E/F Super Hornet (other contenders are the Rafale, Eurofighter, and MiG-29).

Japan’s navy is large, based on 31 destroyers and 9 guided-missile destroyers. Japan’s new destroyers, the Kongo, Atago, Murasame and Takanami classes, are qualitatively better than China’s, and Japan has more of them. Japan is also improving its force of helicopter-carrying destroyers. The new 13,500-ton design looks like a small aircraft carrier. Japan also has a large air force, with a large force of F-15s and F-2s, potent aircraft flown by well-trained pilots.

China is behind both India and Japan in the arenas of airpower and naval forces. In Asia, China has the third most-powerful military. India and Japan are close contenders for the top spot. China only ranks first in the amount of hype it receives. – Harold C. Hutchison

MIGleader

how can it claim india has a superior af and navy to china? while inida may wield talwars, mkis, and mig-29s, china has aircraft and ships comparable or even better than those of inida. the japan assesment is pretty accurate as far as it goes.

darth sidious

report on japans power is preety accurate beacuse the americans supplied them . But india I am not son sure they are more likely equal with china a possibel small advantage over indias army

tphuang

I would say the Japanese definitely has the best Navy + air force combination in Asia, but the India claim is just lame.

I seriously can't wait until the stealthy J-10 comes out next year and 054A finishes construction and all the types of subs enter service, then we will see how the balnce tilts.

darth sidious

how can they calim that india has a superior navy when the chinese already has the 052b 052c and 051c plus the new subs and 054 frigate the two navy are more likely equal if not superior

crazyinsane105

You also have to consider the fact that the PLAN had a lot of its modern destroyers built IN CHINA, not in some foreign country. That proves even though India MAY have better ships than China, China still knows how to build them and arm them.

ahho

maybe whoever was making the claim thought that the aircraft carrier that India
have is a determinent of powerand think that those who don't have it are not on par

Gollevainen

We have had enough of these "which navy is superior, india or china?" topics...usually they end up someone being banned...so cut it out.

If this thread have nothing more to give, it doesen't survive....

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SampanViking

Usually in these matters, the content of an article can almost be disregarded as irrelevant or summarised to simple Good/Bad Pro/Anti position. The interesting part - the bit that really matters, is who is the author?, and what is there agenda?

So does anyone know the general writings of this guy? does it vary from his usual output? which tub does he normally thump?, Is this the Anti-China brigade changing tack, from China threat to China joke, in the hope of stinging China in to some kind of hasty and illconsidered action? or something else entirely?

Learn to read between the lines!!!! become old and cynical like me.

utelore

OK, Here is what I think. I believe the american govenment and generals are fine with PRC military advancment as long as it does not show the ability to defeat the ROC. The problem comes into play when the generals believe that the ROC could not sucessfully defend itself from a PRC attack. Thus the Generals believe that the U.S would have to come to their aid and they do not want to do that. This also is to put pressure on the ROC to tighten up its defences and to BUY more american firepower. I dont believe the U.S fears the PRC is a threat to its world hegomeny nor a direct threat to the U.S proper. BUT again the whole Idea is to keep ROC strong enough to prevent a PRC invasion and tough talk by saying the PRC is the scaryist thing sense linberger cheese is a great way to do this.....cheers ute.

ArjunMk1

Regarding Japanese Navy, every thing is correct. It has a big upper hand in technology. Japanese naval communication system is said to be better than that of US !!!!

But regarding India , wel I am having doubts. Indian Navy may have a slight advantage in technology due to high end imports from Russia and Israel. And also India is pretty quick in absorbing these technologies to make indigeneous variants !!!

But in plain numbers China beats India. I think India is said to be stronger because of its carrier force.

But its clear thet US IS SEEKING CHINESE FRIENDSHIP

crazyinsane105

Well said ArjunMKI. Let's hope that friendship between both nations happens in the future and stays that way. In the end, it doesn't matter who has the best navy or army or jet fighter. If a war is fought, everybody is a loser. And if war is avoided and friendship is achieved, everybody is a winner.

MIGleader

i dont like how this guy judges the power of the indian navy simply by the carriers and whatever advanced imports they recieve. the talwar for example has soe decent electronics adn command system, but nothing very advanced or special compared ot what the rest of the world already has. the large clutter of "stuff" on its deck almost nulls out it's stealthy design. but its an all round good ship.

the carrier is either an advantage or a liability, depending on how the indians use it. but its not particularly advanced, and the indians still lack a ship with fleet air defence abilities.

the japanese claims were generally unbiased, althouygh once again, much of japan'd advanced equipment come from high-end american exports.

although the article is certainly an improvement over the previous atrtegy page claims, it still has a long way to go before it's able to cover alll perspectives.

PanAsian

Thanks Sampan Viking!!! What caught my attention, and what is the purpose of the post, is the sudden 180 turnaround from China threat to China catching up from a fairly hawkish US source... so why?

I do hope that it is representative of a shift among American hardliners to not be pre-emptively hostile to China.

Baibar of Jalat

This apparent shift from people in the region and US from as the thread states from scare mongering to revalution of chinese capibilities with facts, shows how little influence china has on how it portrayed in the western nations. esp US.

Most countries have invested heavily in portraying itself favourably in the eyes of US administrations. India has an effective pro lobby establishment u see results with the Bush admin exchanging nuclear tech even though it is illegal under US law to sign a deal. Israel's is well documented influence( u prob know about it)

Saudia Arabia has got a large lobby, which they needed it after 9/11. today do u hear any threats or scare mongering aimed at Saudi?

China should take concrete steps to clean up its image inparticular regard to economic issues, if dispel some of gov and public feelings that china's just after tech and jobs with nothing in return to the west then its an easy target. learn from others buy influence.

thank you for reading please post any feedback whether u agree or not?,