Type 094 SSBN Thread

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by maozedong

the answer is"no".both 091 and 092 are improved.
094 is totally a new type of sub.
look at those pictures,the sub has the call"turtle back" on the top.that is russian style ballistic missile nuclear sub in 70's and 80's century.the U.S Ohio class sub has no"turtle back"on it.
you may think about 094 type sub should be which style,russian or American?
all of the sub is rather like painted black now,so the new version of 092 is look like a little deffint than the before.

It's about the height of the SLBM vs the height of the hull. If the SLBM is too long, you have to get the hump. Considering the displacement of 094 vs Ohio, I have doubts that it can go without the hump.

[Sea Dog]

I'm just surprised that China would build a submarine in this configuration (Xia style). I always thought they were seeking improvements to submarine design. Including the hull. Are you guys so sure that the 094 is going to look like the Xia?

[Jeff Head]

Originally Posted by Sea Dog

I'm just surprised that China would build a submarine in this configuration (Xia style). I always thought they were seeking improvements to submarine design. Including the hull. Are you guys so sure that the 094 is going to look like the Xia?

A lot of people think it will, although from what I understand the newer attack subs (093) have adopted a more modern design for the hull. We'll just have to wait and see when we can get a better picture of the thing. Like the Varyag, huh?

It's frustrating, because as advanced as the US and other western desings are, you see open pictures of the subs, aircraft carriers, etc, from conception phase through to the finished product. Oh well, we'll just have to patient.

[Violet Oboe]

Recently Kanwa mag was spreading rumours that PLAN has produced highly sophisticated dummy subs which are able to move like a real sub on the surface. Additionally these dummies are believed emitting an identical IR and radio signature which will make detection (as a fake) very difficult. Kanwa maintained that several dummies for SSK and SSN/SSBN are already existing and that each unit costs several million $.

Huitong´s type 094 pic looks quite mysteriously indeed, perhaps it is simply showing a dummy type 094. Spreading of the pic on chinese sites could even have been a deliberate action since PLAN wanted western analysts to be confused.

Is the whole thing possible or is this usual Kanwa imagination? Whats your opinion about this ´high tech dummy subs´story?

[chicket9]

what a waste of millions!

You're basically building floatable hulls out of much steel and fitting them out with heaps of things that make sure they omit same signatures as real subs...

don't tell me all the new Songs we saw ere only dummies:P

[maozedong]

Please see the picture in the post below

Something is interesting. It's different than the pictures above.

[Gollevainen]

That's a portion opf picture posted earlier and it's 092, not 094...

[maozedong]

yes,
this is a improved 092,the letters at right corner below allready tell us.
I think many pictures says "094" is just this one.

[bd popeye]

Recently Kanwa mag was spreading rumours that PLAN has produced highly sophisticated dummy subs which are able to move like a real sub on the surface. Additionally these dummies are believed emitting an identical IR and radio signature which will make detection (as a fake) very difficult. Kanwa maintained that several dummies for SSK and SSN/SSBN are already existing and that each unit costs several million $.

As to the best of my knowledge it is next to impossibe to duplicate the acoustic signature of a submarine. Such dummy subs would be discovered to be fakes immediatly once detected. The potential foe could spend a lot of time tracking them down. I doubt that these dummies,if they do exist, could duplicated the speed of an SSN.

Personally I do not believe this.

[Sea Dog]

Originally Posted by bd popeye

As to the best of my knowledge it is next to impossibe to duplicate the acoustic signature of a submarine. Such dummy subs would be discovered to be fakes immediatly once detected. The potential foe could spend a lot of time tracking them down. I doubt that these dummies,if they do exist, could duplicated the speed of an SSN.

Personally I do not believe this.

I don't buy it myself. I do know the Soviets toyed with the idea of fake subs and ships at one point, but saw how ludicrous it was themselves. I'd like to see the article from Kanwa just out of curiousity.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by maozedong

yes,
this is a improved 092,the letters at right corner below allready tell us.
I think many pictures says "094" is just this one.

There has only been one picture that is speculated as 094 and real.

the picture that posted. We can't say 100% for sure what it is. But giving the dimension and the ratio of hump vs several other parts, it seems that it can't possibly be 406. Maybe China had a second improved 092 that nobody knew about, but it's most likely 094.

[Finn McCool]

Originally Posted by tphuang

There has only been one picture that is speculated as 094 and real.

the picture that posted. We can't say 100% for sure what it is. But giving the dimension and the ratio of hump vs several other parts, it seems that it can't possibly be 406. Maybe China had a second improved 092 that nobody knew about, but it's most likely 094.

That's the fuzzy one from a long way away right? I forget what thread it's in, but I think I remember it. I came to the conclusion that it could be an 094 too.

[AssassinsMace]

Originally Posted by Finn McCool

That's the fuzzy one from a long way away right? I forget what thread it's in, but I think I remember it. I came to the conclusion that it could be an 094 too.

Are you talking about this one? I think the speculation was these were 093s. I think he's talking about the pic I attached in the first post of this thread from huitong's site which is the only pic I know of that is said to be the 094.

[maozedong]

Originally Posted by tphuang

There has only been one picture that is speculated as 094 and real.

the picture that posted. We can't say 100% for sure what it is. But giving the dimension and the ratio of hump vs several other parts, it seems that it can't possibly be 406. Maybe China had a second improved 092 that nobody knew about, but it's most likely 094.

yes, it is hard to speculate china defence secret.they might have more than one 092.
this is some description from a reliabl westren magazine,not my oppinion.
"western intelligence reports have suggested that a second Xia-class SSBN may have been launched in 1981 and that one of the two lost at sea in 1985,this has never been confirmed and the only extant submarine bacame operational in the late 1980's and served with the north sea fleet until going into refit.a new class of SSBN (type094) is now under construction".
one of the two was lost? why? how?
some books mention that westren intelligence speculated china may have one or two 092, but some American intelligenc think china may have 3 to 4.
I have no idea.only my thinking is just one SSBN service in navy for nuclear power is not enough.

[Violet Oboe]

Good to see someone digging in the same sources mao!
Additionally some russian authors maintained around 98/99 that a HAN type sunk after hitting an underwater rock in the Vladivostok approaches in 1983. Interestingly one article corroborated this with a scan of a 1983 Qingdao (Shandong region) military newspaper page which depicts recently deceased submarine navy officers.

I am acutely aware that even high ranked former russian navy officers told you everything you wanted them to confabulate for a bunch of dollars and a dozen vodka bottles in those days of economic despair and social disintegration, but perhaps there is some grain of truth is in this story.

Indeed many open questions remain. Probably PLAN planned to create a minimum deterrence force of 4 type 092 analogous to the french and british SSBN forces after the XIA program began in earnest around 1975. Ten years later Deng ordered reportedly that the program was limited to only one unit for development purposes. That leaves the question what happened after Deng was largely incapacitated after 1993.

Today it is common knowledge that Deng did not want a manned space program even in 1991 but only a year later program 921 was born and in 94/95 it was in full swing patronized by both Jiang Zemin and Li Peng (the new and meanwhile quite succesfull leadership). In my opinion it is absolutely likely that Jiang ordered building a second or maybe third unit of improved type 092 after 1992/93 since JL-2 was in advanced development and type 094 would be ready only around mid next decade.

This scenario seems to be a logical development but unfourtunately there is no open source proof for it. I am sure people in the know (in PLAN and USN) will silently smiling about our uninformed guessing.