Type 056 OPV/Corvette

Originally Posted by Mysterre

The only way for a 056 to be able to act on cue from a remote targeting source is if it replaced its 4 YJ-83's with CY-X-type rocket-boosted torpedoes, which I do not believe the PLAN has any in service AFAIK (so we are talking about a fictional scenario here). OTOH their ranges are typically only around 20-30km and 4 rounds sounds rather skimpy to me anyway. It certainly wouldn't be able to act by using its complement of torpedoes unless a submarine were within a few km, in which case it is almost certainly the one being hunted rather than the other way around. A remote targeting source would have to be another ship with TAS or a helicopter with a dipping sonar or that has deployed sonobuoys. In the future maybe a Y-8 ASW. I believe PLAN has also deployed SOSUS-type surveillance nets at the mouth of Bohai Bay, stretching between Liaoning and Shandong provinces, and I would suspect other places as well, including around its new base at Sanya. But IIRC the information obtained from SOSUS is not target quality and would need to be further localized. Similarly, satellites with wave-tracking technology, IR, or SAR such as the ones the US is almost certainly using to help track PLAN subs now, may some day also be used by the PLAN, but they would also not likely be target-quality tracks, and would be fleeting, as any satellite track would have to be, and would have to be part of a larger, more comprehensive tracking system. Also, it should be noted that pretty much every ship in the PLAN that already has a TAS, already has a means of acting on the information provided by its TAS and wouldn't need a 056 to be present. Every ASW helicopter already has a means to act on information it obtains from sonars/sonobuoys. Every Y-8 ASW would certainly already have weapons on board to attack targets that it picks up. These are complete sensor/weapon packages that don't require the presence of either an external sensor or an external weapon to take down a sub.

An effective ASW platform requires BOTH one or more means of long range detection and one or more means of long range attack. The 056 currently has neither. And unless someone knows something new about PLAN bow sonar technology that I don't, that little stub of a sonar on the 056 wouldn't even make out to the first convergence zone. But put both a TAS and an ASW helo on it and the story changes. OTOH, as people have been saying, what if the PLAN does not intend the 056 to be used in offensive ASW at all? And while it's lovely to imagine a bunch of little ships running around trying to pick up subs with TAS stringing out the back, if you don't have the weapons to promptly act on sensor information, what's the point?

Points taken and understood

I think cued situational awareness does open to possibilities worth considering. With awareness and torpedoes, we do have a potential "dogs and guns" scenario in which 056 can make a lot of noise and chase an enemy into the less than tender embrace of a quieter hunter.

It also seems logical to ensure that if you carry a UACV on board, that it could be used in a ASW role, assuming of course that a suitable weapon exists in the PLAN arsenal?

But again I agree with your central premise which is that it is not necessary to have every ship carrying every possible form of sensor or weapon. It is the "Informationalisation" that counts and enables a lot more to done, far more effectively and for less.

Originally Posted by SampanViking

With awareness and torpedoes, we do have a potential "dogs and guns" scenario in which 056 can make a lot of noise and chase an enemy into the less than tender embrace of a quieter hunter.

In terms of making noise from a sub's point of view, the only noise that matters is the ping of an active sonar in its area. The 056 already has this capability in its little bow sonar. It could theoretically bang away at its sonar along with a couple of its friends and drive an enemy sub into a trap. Though this Hunt-for-Red-Octoberesque tactic seems possible, it presupposes two things. The first is that the sub is repelled by active sonar rather than attracted to it. If the sub captain feels he can snuff you out before you can get in a position to attack him, he will go ahead and do exactly that. In the case of the 056 with no standoff ASW weapons to speak of, going active would probably be suicide without another ship nearby that can defend it. A typical hunter-killer sub uses heavy, long-range, fast-moving antiship torpedoes (e.g. Mk 48) that will outclass any of the lighter, slower and shorter-range anti-sub torpedoes that ships typically carry (e.g. Yu-7), not to mention any popup antiship missiles the sub might be carrying. With that kind of mismatch, a tail-chase type of engagement where a sub's torpedo is chasing the ship while the ship's torpedo is making a head-on attack against the sub is really the only realistic chance for a ship to survive going torpedo-vs-torpedo against a sub, assuming we're talking about an SSN.

The second is that you have a general idea where the enemy sub is, even if just something like "northeast of us". If you don't, the ocean is a big place, and randomly pinging in open ocean will not likely result in any worthwhile gains. Currently the PLAN (for the most part) lacks the assets to make this a realistic tactic. More SOSUS nets along with the development of sub-detecting satellites and SURTASS/LFA-equipped ships would go a long way towards giving the PLAN a better picture of the undersea environment and help facilitate the kind of trap tactics you're describing. BTW those ships are supposedly pretty badass for detecting subs, even if they do kill whales sometimes.... But I think all of that stuff is at least 10-20 years away for the PLAN.

Originally Posted by SampanViking

It also seems logical to ensure that if you carry a UACV on board, that it could be used in a ASW role, assuming of course that a suitable weapon exists in the PLAN arsenal?

A UAV helo that could fit on a 056 couldn't carry more than a few one-use sonobuoys to a short distance out, which makes the long-range sub detection capability of the 056 both limited and temporary. It would also have to replace that rear section of the ship that is sandwiched between the torpedo launchers with a UAV hangar and move what is inside there now to somewhere else on the ship, and given that the ship is only 1,000-1,400 tons, there aren't many extra places to relocate to. Unless you want to stretch the ship, in which case you might as well put a real hangar in there. And then of course there is always the problem of how to attack your sonar contact, should you get lucky enough to find one.....

First I don’t think a few Type 056s can just “bang” away and wait for an active sonar to pick up a submarine, that simply just doesn’t happen, because when using active sonar you also get lots of background noise, your signal to noise ratio is critical, are you aware of the underwater features and landmarks, can you tell when you over deep canyons etc etc , and it takes a very talent operator to recognise what he is looking at

Changes in the oceans salinity cause many problems for active sonar as does changes in temperature, this is completely different topic

Secondly when hunting for submarine all the advantages lies with the sub, because it can hide but the surface vessel cant , and SSN captains are a small elite group of submariners that are second to none, their selection process is the one of toughest jobs in the navy

The best and only way to submarine hunt is to deploy your own hunter killer submarine, failing that there are one other solution, that is ASW helicopter, and that’s where the Z9C comes in, Pakistan Navy has acquired this type and it is a pretty good helo for searching for submarines with relatively good sensors, if nothing else any SSNs nightmare is when a ASW helo is detected, then all the disadvantage lie with the submarine, the helo can either engage or rely the info to a surface ship which can then attack

And lastly a UAV can be used for ASW, when your only Z9C comes into re-fuel, or re-arm or new crews take over you lose your greatest ASW asset for that period of time, that’s when a rotor blade UAV or UACV can take over keeping eyes and hears in the water, it does not mean it will necessarily be an attack platform

the fact that Type 056 even has a helo platform is good enough asset for ASW, obviously depending on what helo it will carry

Originally Posted by Mysterre

In terms of making noise from a sub's point of view, the only noise that matters is the ping of an active sonar in its area. The 056 already has this capability in its little bow sonar. It could theoretically bang away at its sonar along with a couple of its friends and drive an enemy sub into a trap. Though this Hunt-for-Red-Octoberesque tactic seems possible, it presupposes two things. The first is that the sub is repelled by active sonar rather than attracted to it. If the sub captain feels he can snuff you out before you can get in a position to attack him, he will go ahead and do exactly that. In the case of the 056 with no standoff ASW weapons to speak of, going active would probably be suicide without another ship nearby that can defend it. A typical hunter-killer sub uses heavy, long-range, fast-moving antiship torpedoes (e.g. Mk 48) that will outclass any of the lighter, slower and shorter-range anti-sub torpedoes that ships typically carry (e.g. Yu-7), not to mention any popup antiship missiles the sub might be carrying. With that kind of mismatch, a tail-chase type of engagement where a sub's torpedo is chasing the ship while the ship's torpedo is making a head-on attack against the sub is really the only realistic chance for a ship to survive going torpedo-vs-torpedo against a sub, assuming we're talking about an SSN.

The second is that you have a general idea where the enemy sub is, even if just something like "northeast of us". If you don't, the ocean is a big place, and randomly pinging in open ocean will not likely result in any worthwhile gains. Currently the PLAN (for the most part) lacks the assets to make this a realistic tactic. More SOSUS nets along with the development of sub-detecting satellites and SURTASS/LFA-equipped ships would go a long way towards giving the PLAN a better picture of the undersea environment and help facilitate the kind of trap tactics you're describing. BTW those ships are supposedly pretty badass for detecting subs, even if they do kill whales sometimes.... But I think all of that stuff is at least 10-20 years away for the PLAN.


A UAV helo that could fit on a 056 couldn't carry more than a few one-use sonobuoys to a short distance out, which makes the long-range sub detection capability of the 056 both limited and temporary. It would also have to replace that rear section of the ship that is sandwiched between the torpedo launchers with a UAV hangar and move what is inside there now to somewhere else on the ship, and given that the ship is only 1,000-1,400 tons, there aren't many extra places to relocate to. Unless you want to stretch the ship, in which case you might as well put a real hangar in there. And then of course there is always the problem of how to attack your sonar contact, should you get lucky enough to find one.....

the general point I am really trying to make here is that the 056 is hardly ever going to be operating in areas and under conditions, where; as a platform, it is on its own. I have always seen it as a piece in the network and to be honest, the pawns of this chess board.

I hoped I had made clear that it would always be working in conjunction with other more sophisticated platforms, which will provide better situation awareness and execute the final coup de grace. My basic point is that a ship of this type could participate is something like ASW in China's littorals without itself needing to be outfitted with the latest and best detection systems or weapons.

The scenario of my previous post was one where the general position of a sub was known and something big and nasty was moving in to finish it off. The 056's were there to shrink the Ocean and cause distraction and uncertainly. In a similar vein I was not thinking of a UACV with sonar bouys, but something potentially fatal it could drop onto a known target, detected and designated by a larger and more capable ship etc etc. I could believe that such a ship could be used as bait if there were other platforms staying silent or above the water, able to give them support.

I have no doubt that the low cost "dumb terminal" approach is the one that best describes the envisaged operations doctrine of the class of ship and I am just trying to illustrate what that could mean. If a specific illustration is not feasible, it just means that the PLAN would not try and do it that particular way.

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

First I don’t think a few Type 056s can just “bang” away and wait for an active sonar to pick up a submarine, that simply just doesn’t happen, because when using active sonar you also get lots of background noise, your signal to noise ratio is critical, are you aware of the underwater features and landmarks, can you tell when you over deep canyons etc etc , and it takes a very talent operator to recognise what he is looking at

Who said it would have to try and pick up any submarine tracks? You should read it again carefully: the 056's purpose in that scenario is to drive a submarine into a trap, not necessarily to localize a sub's coordinates for the purpose of attack. Also, "bang" is a word you are taking literally which in practice doesn't happen regardless and therefore has no reason to be nitpicked about. In this case "banging" a sonar signifies the intent of the action rather than what actually comes out of the sonar emitter.

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

The best and only way to submarine hunt is to deploy your own hunter killer submarine

Clearly that is not true in all circumstances, most especially if your own H-K submarine is significantly inferior to your prey, such as is the case with USN and PLAN submarines. In this case it would be like a wolf hunting a tiger: stupid, dead wolf; full, happy tiger.

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

failing that there are one other solution, that is ASW helicopter, and that’s where the Z9C comes in, Pakistan Navy has acquired this type and it is a pretty good helo for searching for submarines with relatively good sensors, if nothing else any SSNs nightmare is when a ASW helo is detected, then all the disadvantage lie with the submarine, the helo can either engage or rely the info to a surface ship which can then attack

There are other solutions that are far superior to an ASW helicopter using dipping sonar or sonobuoys for the detection of submarines, namely fixed wing ASW planes and SURTASS/LFA sonar ships. In the case of sonar ships, they would certainly be part of a surface fleet in wartime and would be able to utilize the fleet's armament if a sub were detected. Also, many subs carry air defense missiles, so the disadvantage is not always with the sub. If the sub captain feels that detection and subsequent attack is imminent, he may very well just take that helo out.

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

And lastly a UAV can be used for ASW, when your only Z9C comes into re-fuel, or re-arm or new crews take over you lose your greatest ASW asset for that period of time, that’s when a rotor blade UAV or UACV can take over keeping eyes and hears in the water, it does not mean it will necessarily be an attack platform

Did someone argue that UAV's cannot be used for ASW?

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

the fact that Type 056 even has a helo platform is good enough asset for ASW, obviously depending on what helo it will carry

Yeah, in the same way a BB gun is good enough asset for boar hunting. After all, you COULD kill a boar with a BB gun.

Originally Posted by SampanViking

the general point I am really trying to make here is that the 056 is hardly ever going to be operating in areas and under conditions, where; as a platform, it is on its own. I have always seen it as a piece in the network and to be honest, the pawns of this chess board.

I hoped I had made clear that it would always be working in conjunction with other more sophisticated platforms, which will provide better situation awareness and execute the final coup de grace. My basic point is that a ship of this type could participate is something like ASW in China's littorals without itself needing to be outfitted with the latest and best detection systems or weapons.

The scenario of my previous post was one where the general position of a sub was known and something big and nasty was moving in to finish it off. The 056's were there to shrink the Ocean and cause distraction and uncertainly. In a similar vein I was not thinking of a UACV with sonar bouys, but something potentially fatal it could drop onto a known target, detected and designated by a larger and more capable ship etc etc. I could believe that such a ship could be used as bait if there were other platforms staying silent or above the water, able to give them support.

I have no doubt that the low cost "dumb terminal" approach is the one that best describes the envisaged operations doctrine of the class of ship and I am just trying to illustrate what that could mean. If a specific illustration is not feasible, it just means that the PLAN would not try and do it that particular way.

I hear what you are saying, but my point is that in order for the 056 to have any real use as part of a networked ASW operation it needs to have some capability to either detect or attack a submarine at long range, if not both. In other words, it would either be a remoting sensing platform to help designate targets for other ASW platforms, or it would be a mini-arsenal ship to help provide firepower for remote sensing platforms. Since it lacks both a long range sensor and a long range weapon, its usefulness to an ASW operation is extremely limited. As a remote sensing platform, a 056 armed with a TAS would have to be closely paired with a ship that can prosecute an immediate attack on a track. Well why not just put a TAS on that ship in the first place (assuming it didn't have one already)? Add to that the fact that the 056 is not designed to keep up with a blue water fleet and your options for offboard weapons launchers decreases dramatically. As for mini-arsenal ships, a Type 022 loaded with 8 CY-X missiles would be a far more potent (and cheaper) mini-arsenal ship for littoral ASW, though I should note again that rocket-boosted torpedoes don't have nearly the reach of a torpedo-armed helicopter. Pairing a 056 stringing TAS with a 022 carrying CY-X missiles is a possibility that sounds more like a Rube Goldberg contraption than a viable solution to ASW.

But then this all gets back to my whole point about us fanboys asking this ship to do more than its designers intended for it to do.

Originally Posted by Mysterre

..........

Clearly that is not true in all circumstances, most especially if your own H-K submarine is significantly inferior to your prey, such as is the case with USN and PLAN submarines. In this case it would be like a wolf hunting a tiger: stupid, dead wolf; full, happy tiger.
..............

Elaborate on how much you know of these 'significantly inferior' PLAN vs USN subs.

Originally Posted by Schumacher

Elaborate on how much you know of these 'significantly inferior' PLAN vs USN subs.

It's an assumption, IMO more than bourne out by the fact that even as 093 rolled off the docks the PLAN was already trying to work on a 095 due to their dissatisfaction with the 093. Problem? Now let's have you elaborate on how much you know of PLAN and USN subs.

do submarines really carry airdefence missiles? thats new to me, which ones and which missiles?

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

do submarines really carry airdefence missiles? thats new to me, which ones and which missiles?

Several older submarine types carry submerged VL and/or encapsulated SAM's, I forget which ones. I'll have to bust out my Naval Institute Guide when I have more time. Newer generation submarine-launched SAM's include the German IDUS and the US AIM-9X adapted for submarine launch, which IIRC finished testing with two different capsule types a few years ago. It may or may not already be in service, I have no idea.

Aim-9X is a air-to-air missile, how does it achieve a lock when a submarine is submerged? is it not easier to use something like the Stinger missile which uses a non-reprogrammable processor and can lock after launch, even then do USN SSN carry these

i do not think modern active submarines routinely carry such missiles unless someone has a link or list of ones that actually do

Speaking of anti submarine UAV, maybe China can reverse engineer / improve on the DASH design.

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

Aim-9X is a air-to-air missile, how does it achieve a lock when a submarine is submerged? is it not easier to use something like the Stinger missile which uses a non-reprogrammable processor and can lock after launch, even then do USN SSN carry these

i do not think modern active submarines routinely carry such missiles unless someone has a link or list of ones that actually do

You not knowing something is not the same thing as something not being possible. You could also help yourself by using Google:
http://www.europeansecurityanddefenc...k_ESD_0308.pdf
Updated with New Photos: Submerged IDAS Missile Firing
U-33 sucessfully downes air drone with IDAS missile
Raytheon-led Littoral Warfare Weapons Team Demonstrates Successful Underwater Launch - Sep 14, 2009
Underwater AIM-9X
NAVSEA concludes Water Piercing Missile Launcher testing

do you even read your own links?

u said originally quote "that many submarines carry air defence missiles", i asked which ones, and now you posted links to experimental trials!? and it clearly says in the last paragraph of the first link that IDAS is going to be "probably" operational until 2014 and even then it has a big disadvantage as it gives away the submarines position which is oen reason it hasnt really taken off

also in ur own link it says Aim-9X isnt going operational until 2015-2017 and again these are demonstration tests showing proof of concept and not deployed on operational submarines and do not pose a practical solution, so yeah infact since i didnt know it doesnt really exist

seems to me your just having a blether here so im done!

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

do you even read your own links?

u said originally quote "that many submarines carry air defence missiles", i asked which ones, and now you posted links to experimental trials!? and it clearly says in the last paragraph of the first link that IDAS is going to be "probably" operational until 2014 and even then it has a big disadvantage as it gives away the submarines position which is oen reason it hasnt really taken off

also in ur own link it says Aim-9X isnt going operational until 2015-2017 and again these are demonstration tests showing proof of concept and not deployed on operational submarines and do not pose a practical solution, so yeah infact since i didnt know it doesnt really exist

seems to me your just having a blether here so im done!

And I also said I would have to look through the Naval Institute Guide to find the current and older SAM's which have been adapted to sub-launch in the past. Unfortunately this section is something like a couple hundred pages without any separate "sub-launched" category and I would have to flip through each page individually, which is why I said I would have do it when I have enough time for something like that. I also did not say either the IDAS or the AIM-9X are currently in service, and I specifically mentioned that the AIM-9X had just recently been tested with two capsules, and that I didn't know whether it was currently in service. And that was going off memory, before I helped you out by googling for you. Regardless, my links clearly demonstrate something possible that you thought was not, because these missiles are stated to have acquired and struck targets after popup.

Originally Posted by hmmwv

Speaking of anti submarine UAV, maybe China can reverse engineer / improve on the DASH design.

Perhaps this one:
Chinese V750 Unmanned Helicopter's First Flight ~ Global Military Review

This would probably fit inside a single deck UAV hangar on the 056. It looks like it has a speed of 161km/hr, payload capacity of 80kg and a range of 150+km. Enough for several sonobuoys or a dipping sonar, but definitely not a torpedo.