Type 056 OPV/Corvette

Originally Posted by sealordlawrence

It depends how big ones UAV is, but it still needs a hangar and a UAV's effectiveness is often related in some part to its size. For most maritime applications I suspect that a crew would still be desired.

Just a superficial comparison of the US Navy's MQ-8B to the Z9 shows physically it's about half the size but it's able to carry sensors and armament.

I think with UAVs, you don't need a very large hangar, heck a garage would sound about right. So I think it's possible to do that on the 056. The larger heli pad would permit manned helicopters to land if needed.

Originally Posted by sealordlawrence

In that case the PLAN is going to struggle to find Green water submarines. It requires helicopters and very high end sensors and the archaic notion of the submarine chaser is not going to provide that. The reality seems to be that the PLAN is replicating the role being undertaken by 3 other existing maritime agencies.



Based on current South Sea fleet inventory it requires multiple DDGs and FFGs.

Since the presumed service area of the 056 is the first island chain, I fail to see why the heavy expectations of its ASW capabilities. You can easily have anti-sub planes work in conjunction.


I don't see this ship replicating the other agencies. What ship in their respective fleets have similar armament to the 056?

Joshuatree,

MQ-8B is extremely limited in its utility precisely due to its limited size, a better comparison would be the MH-60R. A small UAV can never offer the same capabilities that a manned helicopter can.

The area within the first Island chain is littered with Submarines, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan all operate SSK fleets (Japan is enlarging theirs) and Australian SSK's are known to operate a long way North. Not to mention that China's ASW aircraft fleet is pitiful.

The armament of the 056 may be greater than that of an OPV but it still offers very little.

Originally Posted by sealordlawrence

Joshuatree,

MQ-8B is extremely limited in its utility precisely due to its limited size, a better comparison would be the MH-60R. A small UAV can never offer the same capabilities that a manned helicopter can.
.............

How about a few small UAVs vs a manned helicopter ?

Originally Posted by sealordlawrence

All this ship is is an OPV with some light warship trappings and it is difficult to see what purpose it is intended to undertake that the multiple other maritime agencies do not already.

I would hazard a guess that the 056 will be used to show the flag and exercise PRC's sovereignty in disputed waters, particularly around Diaoyutai/Senkaku, the Paracels and Spratlys.

The 056 would be more powerfully armed as compared to regional coast guard vessels. Even against Vietnam and Malaysia's warships (these are 2 of the countries with competing claims to Spratlys. Vietnam claims Paracels too), the 056 doesn't fare too badly especially considering that the 056 can be mass produced so that several can be deployed to the huge expanse of waters at any 1 time.

Originally Posted by Schumacher

How about a few small UAVs vs a manned helicopter ?

Not as effective, as you need the extra size of a large helicopter to carry all of the sensors (where are you going to put a hundred sonobuoys in the back of a UAV?), and the processors required to handle all of your sensors. And don't forget about the generators needed to keep all of these systems powered, and of course, the weapons.

Originally Posted by sealordlawrence

Joshuatree,

MQ-8B is extremely limited in its utility precisely due to its limited size, a better comparison would be the MH-60R. A small UAV can never offer the same capabilities that a manned helicopter can.

The area within the first Island chain is littered with Submarines, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan all operate SSK fleets (Japan is enlarging theirs) and Australian SSK's are known to operate a long way North. Not to mention that China's ASW aircraft fleet is pitiful.

The armament of the 056 may be greater than that of an OPV but it still offers very little.

I wasn't trying to compare the capabilities of the MQ-8B but rather its physical size.

Ultimately, I think its unreasonable to expect capabilities of a larger frigate or destroyer on a corvette/OPV. If that could be done, it would make frigates and destroyers obsolete.

Even if the 056 offers little more that an OPV as you suggest, it would still be a vast improvement over the Jianghu. Modern systems with automation should reduce crew sizes, improve efficiency, and increase reliability/resiliency.

Also, while everyone laments a lack of a hangar, don't the Jiangwei's carry a Z9 on the pad itself? What prevents this type of deployment for the 056? It would be much faster to build these vessels, maybe even at lesser shipyards, to modernize the PLAN fleet and permit the newer frigates/destroyers to perform long range deployments or form CBGs.

Originally Posted by Spartan95

I would hazard a guess that the 056 will be used to show the flag and exercise PRC's sovereignty in disputed waters, particularly around Diaoyutai/Senkaku, the Paracels and Spratlys.

The 056 would be more powerfully armed as compared to regional coast guard vessels. Even against Vietnam and Malaysia's warships (these are 2 of the countries with competing claims to Spratlys. Vietnam claims Paracels too), the 056 doesn't fare too badly especially considering that the 056 can be mass produced so that several can be deployed to the huge expanse of waters at any 1 time.

I agree with this line of thought. Disputed areas do not always permit a heavy handed presence. What would sailing a CBG as an example around Diaoyotai or Spratlys convey to other countries? Whereas a smaller corvette would show the flag but in a more discrete manner.

For me the 056 design is just too limited.

The forward 76 mm rapid-fire gun is a good weapon, well-suited to the ship's role, but the 4-box launcher missile load for a ship of her tonnage is just too small.

That lack of armament seems to be a disturbing trend in the newer PLAN vessels.

That is quite unlike the PLAN's policy with the older Luda class DDG's, DDG's 112 and 113 and DDG 167, which despite their limited size and displacement (especially compared to the 054A class of FFG's) were armed with 16 box launchers for the YJ-8x series Anti-ship missiles, (and perhaps the CY-1 anti-submarine rocket) - although most other armament (especially AAW and ASW) was limited to say the least.

This ship should mount from 8 to 12 box-launchers with a load out of say 8 AShM and 4 ASW missiles.

To be more effective in dealing with multiple axes attack from AShM's, another 2 RAM-like missile launchers should also be mounted on either beam, so complete coverage can be attained.

Further the open space on the bridge's roof can be mounted with more sensors or fire control radars.

The after block should be enlarged to form a helicopter hangar, and at least 2 AK-630's should be mounted in addition to a couple of chaff/decoy launchers.

The hull should have bow, conformal and the stern a towed-array set of sonars.

Of course the price of the resultant vessel (rather akin to an Israeli Saar 5 class corvette), would rocket.

He he he...

Originally Posted by duskylim

For me the 056 design is just too limited.

The forward 76 mm rapid-fire gun is a good weapon, well-suited to the ship's role, but the 4-box launcher missile load for a ship of her tonnage is just too small.

That lack of armament seems to be a disturbing trend in the newer PLAN vessels.

That is quite unlike the PLAN's policy with the older Luda class DDG's, DDG's 112 and 113 and DDG 167, which despite their limited size and displacement (especially compared to the 054A class of FFG's) were armed with 16 box launchers for the YJ-8x series Anti-ship missiles, (and perhaps the CY-1 anti-submarine rocket) - although most other armament (especially AAW and ASW) was limited to say the least.

This ship should mount from 8 to 12 box-launchers with a load out of say 8 AShM and 4 ASW missiles.

To be more effective in dealing with multiple axes attack from AShM's, another 2 RAM-like missile launchers should also be mounted on either beam, so complete coverage can be attained.

Further the open space on the bridge's roof can be mounted with more sensors or fire control radars.

The after block should be enlarged to form a helicopter hangar, and at least 2 AK-630's should be mounted in addition to a couple of chaff/decoy launchers.

The hull should have bow, conformal and the stern a towed-array set of sonars.

Of course the price of the resultant vessel (rather akin to an Israeli Saar 5 class corvette), would rocket.

He he he...

Should the 056 class is what'd replace the 037 class, it'd represent no small a leap in many ways. Physically a larger platform, with superior guns and certain level of helicopter operation capability, no doubt far more suited for low-intensity operations in South China Sea then the current boats.

As for UAV capabilities, since China has no UAV that could perform over-the-horizon targeting, UAV ain't too much a use for anti-shipping missions, and UAV ain't suitable for ASW operations, worry about UAV capabilities is unfound.

Also, likely they'd be deployed to the South Sea Fleet, 056 class could actually work well in rescue missions, provide offshore platform for Z-9 helicopters.

Maybe the type 056 can be used to direct type 022 FACs ?

Originally Posted by no_name

Maybe the type 056 can be used to direct type 022 FACs ?

The doctrines for the 022 FAC is far different from something like the 056 corvette - the 022 FAC more in line with the old Soviet's missile boat attack doctrine, 056 corvette is more conventional, geared for low-intensity operations. And if needed over-the-horizon targeting assistance, datalink from aerial platform would be more suitable.

Originally Posted by no_name

Maybe the type 056 can be used to direct type 022 FACs ?

Any platform that works with FAC's need to have good air defence capabilities, since the biggest threat to to FAC's remain aircraft.

Australia is looking to build up to 20 "offshore combat vessels" that will serve similar roles as the 056:

Planned Australian offshore combatant vessel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.navy.gov.au/w/images/Semaphore_2010_4.pdf

Like the StandardFlex system that I mentioned earlier, the Aussies are looking into plug-in container modules for add multi-role capability/flexibility.

IMO if the PLAN was willing to develop such a system for the 056, it'd allow the 056 Corvette to be built in base configuration inexpensively, and add mission modules on as-needed basis.

As for UAV's, ship-based UAV's usually don't have the payload for sonar and torpedoes. They're useful for surveillance since a UAV can fly much faster than a ship. For ASW role you still need a real ASW helicopter.

Originally Posted by tphuang

You really do overestimate Z-9C production. They have been producing for so many years and still only have 3 regiments. If the production for 056 goes up to 30 to 50 like some sources are saying, then they are really not going to have enough Z-9Cs.

There are many reasons why there are 3 regiments of Z-9C's, limited production capacity being only one potential reason. I personally have no reason to believe they could not equip every single one of those "50" corvettes with its own Z-9.

Originally Posted by tphuang

This may surprise you, but PLAN does believe in using submarine chasers in green water ASW operations.

It surprises me that you know that since I doubt you have personal acquaintences in the PLAN ASW community.

Originally Posted by duskylim

The forward 76 mm rapid-fire gun is a good weapon, well-suited to the ship's role, but the 4-box launcher missile load for a ship of her tonnage is just too small.

That lack of armament seems to be a disturbing trend in the newer PLAN vessels.

Not really. The Flight IIA AB's have NO AShM launchers at all. No VLS cells house antiship missiles ever since the antiship Tomahawks were all converted to LACM's many years back. The only thing an AB can do antiship-wise is to try and pump some air defense missiles into enemy ships. The ESSM can only do this within visual range of the fleet, and the SM-2 can only do this OTH if it has external cueing (like from an aircraft) or possibly via IR tracking if it is the latest version (Block IIIB). The USN's antiship mission has been relegated to fighters only at this point. In this day and age it has become progressively more difficult for surface ships to get within launch range of their antiship missiles before being attacked by the enemy's defenses. Especially the latest YJ-8 with a range of 180km which is what this class is likely to carry.

Originally Posted by duskylim

This ship should mount from 8 to 12 box-launchers with a load out of say 8 AShM and 4 ASW missiles.

To be more effective in dealing with multiple axes attack from AShM's, another 2 RAM-like missile launchers should also be mounted on either beam, so complete coverage can be attained.

I have no idea where you think you can put all that. Those "RAM-like" launchers require an entire deck below the launcher for additional hardware, and there is no deck space to boot.

Originally Posted by ZTZ99

There are many reasons why there are 3 regiments of Z-9C's, limited production capacity being only one potential reason. I personally have no reason to believe they could not equip every single one of those "50" corvettes with its own Z-9.


It surprises me that you know that since I doubt you have personal acquaintences in the PLAN ASW community.

I don't profess to know exactly how they think, but they are still continually upgrading Type 037 sub chasers at the moment. For example, a while ago, they put TAS on some of them. Up until now, PLAN relies on diesel submarines and sub chasers to do ASW missions since they have been extremely lacking in aerial assets. They are changing that in the coming years as they have more fixed wings and rotary ASW assets coming into service, but that takes time and experience.

As I've said before, I believe 056's role is to replace Jianghu and Type 037. I would not judge 056 based on some CGs from magazines.