Type 052 (Luhu Class)

Originally Posted by Bltizo

Or is it simply that 052C is chinese and type 45 is british/european?

Mostly this. Just because both ships have AESA and similarly ranged SAM's doesn't mean the quality of those systems are the same. In fact it's easier for me to assume that they are not than for you to assume that they are. No doubt China has come a long way with naval warfare systems but just by what I know of the PLAN I would say they are not up to state of the art in naval technology. The UK is. Problem?

Originally Posted by Bltizo

But they are still perfectly relevant when comparing one class of ship with another. And PLAN won't always be fighting the USN -- most of the time they won't be. By that logic they might as well remove the main gun and RHIBs and just stick in as many VLS cells as possible.

Not really. It's perfectly fine to have antiship missiles and main guns on ships, but comparing these barely important systems to each other and stating one ship is better than another on these bases is skewing the truly important aspects of capital ships these days, which is air defense, and to a lesser extent ASW and strike. In that regard, the missile system, radar system, and combat management system of a given ship is the true basis of comparison between different ships. Even if the 052C had better antiship missiles and main guns than the Type 45, I would still give the edge to the Type 45 based on its anti-air systems which I guess to be better than the Type 052C, and like I said, my bet on this is more likely than yours, and you know it.

Originally Posted by Mysterre

Mostly this. Just because both ships have AESA and similarly ranged SAM's doesn't mean the quality of those systems are the same. In fact it's easier for me to assume that they are not than for you to assume that they are. No doubt China has come a long way with naval warfare systems but just by what I know of the PLAN I would say they are not up to state of the art in naval technology. The UK is. Problem?

Indeed that's a problem. In forum, personal assumption and perception are not accepted to comfirm an system... everything must backed by facts. You must be new here?

So now China is able to send man to space, shoot down satelite and even conduct an ABM mid- course interception outside atmostphere. So that mean UK who's not able to do so are crap in my perception, is it?

Originally Posted by Lion

Indeed that's a problem. In forum, personal assumption and perception are not accepted to comfirm an system... everything must backed by facts. You must be new here?

So now China is able to send man to space, shoot down satelite and even conduct an ABM mid- course interception outside atmostphere. So that mean UK who's not able to do so are crap in my perception, is it?

Actually, based on your posts here, I feel I am far more cognizant of my own biases than you are of yours. But that is another matter.

While China's space program has made some great achievements and is definitely something for us to be proud of, people need to stop deluding themselves by confusing lack of political will with lack of inherent technological capability. Space programs, especially manned programs, are expensive both politically and economically. But IMO if ESA and even JAXA had the will to institute such programs back in the day, they would be far ahead of where China is now. This scenario would have been much more likely if there were not a Cold War or if the geopolitical interests of Europe and Japan were (and are) otherwise not so closely aligned with that of the US.

Getting back to the 052C, it is difficult for me to imagine how you do NOT feel that the state of the art in UK naval technology is higher than that of China, but that is just where personal biases come through, and outside of concrete information which we in fact do not have, all we have left is "personal assumption and perception". Problem?

Originally Posted by Mysterre

Actually, based on your posts here, I feel I am far more cognizant of my own biases than you are of yours. But that is another matter.

While China's space program has made some great achievements and is definitely something for us to be proud of, people need to stop deluding themselves by confusing lack of political will with lack of inherent technological capability. Space programs, especially manned programs, are expensive both politically and economically. But IMO if ESA and even JAXA had the will to institute such programs back in the day, they would be far ahead of where China is now. This scenario would have been much more likely if there were not a Cold War or if the geopolitical interests of Europe and Japan were (and are) otherwise not so closely aligned with that of the US.

Getting back to the 052C, it is difficult for me to imagine how you do NOT feel that the state of the art in UK naval technology is higher than that of China, but that is just where personal biases come through, and outside of concrete information which we in fact do not have, all we have left is "personal assumption and perception". Problem?

It still a problem. I still feel UK naval technology is inferior. Problem?

Originally Posted by Lion

It still a problem. I still feel UK naval technology is inferior. Problem?

You can "feel" whatever the hell you want.

So let's say a 052C meets a Type 45 on the open seas, no other support, the 052C can shoot the Type 45 all it wants, the Type 45 can do what? Swear loudly?

I don't think anyone is saying Chinese naval technology is on par with British, but on a ship to ship basis the 052C is a more balanced ship, while the Type 45 is a product of compromises (technological, political, economical). The Type 45 is indeed a cutting edge dedicated air defense ship, the Sampson is something even the USN envy, however for a 8000+ ton ship to carry only 48 SAMs is rather embarrassing when compared with a Burke.

Originally Posted by hmmwv

So let's say a 052C meets a Type 45 on the open seas, no other support, the 052C can shoot the Type 45 all it wants, the Type 45 can do what? Swear loudly?

I fail to discern what you mean by this. And what do you mean by "shoot"? A YJ-62? A 100mm round? What? Why would a Type 45 only swear loudly at a Type 052C "shooting" at it?

Originally Posted by hmmwv

I don't think anyone is saying Chinese naval technology is on par with British

But actually, that is EXACTLY what Blitzo is saying. And Lion is saying that Chinese naval technology actually EXCEEDS the British! Now I'm no Westerncentric tech snob, but what's common sense should be common, and outside of firm confirmation otherwise from PLAN sources, Western naval technological superiority still holds. We will see a blurring of this technological distinction soon enough, but today is not that day. I will wait to see the outcome of the 052D program (if it actually exists) before I could grow any more confident that a tech parity with the West has been reached, or is even close.

Originally Posted by hmmwv

but on a ship to ship basis the 052C is a more balanced ship, while the Type 45 is a product of compromises (technological, political, economical). The Type 45 is indeed a cutting edge dedicated air defense ship, the Sampson is something even the USN envy, however for a 8000+ ton ship to carry only 48 SAMs is rather embarrassing when compared with a Burke.

Well if you look at an overhead of the Type 45 it is clear that a middle row of 3 VLS modules could fit in there for a total of 9 modules = 72 missiles. It is not clear to me why they did not add more missiles given the presence of room, possibly financial, possibly other. But the latent capability is certainly there. A similar example is found in the Zeven Provincien class "frigates" of the Dutch navy. A 2x3 grid of VLS modules with only 5 actual modules in there. The only thing the Type 052C has that the Type 45 does not is the 8 YJ-62's. That's it AFAIK. If you want to call that greater "balance", that's fine, but the presence of antiship missiles on a warship to me is meh these days unless you're expecting to fight weak opponents without good air cover and/or good air defense. Flight IIA Burkes did away with them altogether to devote more room to hangar space (I think), though looking at pictures of Flight IIA's over the years I've always thought they still had enough deck space to keep those 8 Harpoons.

Originally Posted by Mysterre

I fail to discern what you mean by this. And what do you mean by "shoot"? A YJ-62? A 100mm round? What? Why would a Type 45 only swear loudly at a Type 052C "shooting" at it?

One would think it's obvious that he means the 052C can shoot ant-ship missiles at the Type 45 and not expect any sort of retaliation from it in return. Your antagonistic attitude isn't helping I'm afraid, hmmvv didn't use any provocative language that warrants the use of such a mocking tone from multiple sarcastic questions.

Originally Posted by jobjed

One would think it's obvious that he means the 052C can shoot ant-ship missiles at the Type 45 and not expect any sort of retaliation from it in return. Your antagonistic attitude isn't helping I'm afraid, hmmvv didn't use any provocative language that warrants the use of such a mocking tone from multiple sarcastic questions.

If I had intended to be provocative it would take little for me to make it quite obvious. You need to grow a thick skin or else probably you should consider not posting on internet forums. I mean it.

Let's take this to its logical conclusion. The Type 052C fires 4 YJ-62's, hardly consistuting a saturation attack. The Type 45 shoots them down with ease. The Type 052C then makes a 180 degree turn and fires its remaining 4 YJ-62's, hardly constituting a saturation attack. The Type 45 shoots them down with ease. Now what is the Type 052C going to do? Swear loudly?

Originally Posted by Mysterre

If I had intended to be provocative it would take little for me to make it quite obvious. You need to grow a thick skin or else probably you should consider not posting on internet forums. I mean it.

Let's take this to its logical conclusion. The Type 052C fires 4 YJ-62's, hardly consistuting a saturation attack. The Type 45 shoots them down with ease. The Type 052C then makes a 180 degree turn and fires its remaining 4 YJ-62's, hardly constituting a saturation attack. The Type 45 shoots them down with ease. Now what is the Type 052C going to do? Swear loudly?

A consecutive wave of 4 missiles is enough to sink T45. Actually, in a ship vs ship, or aircraft vs aircraft for that matter, scenario where one can attack while the other can only defend, it's already clear the attacking side has the upper hand.

Originally Posted by Mysterre

people need to stop deluding themselves by confusing lack of political will with lack of inherent technological capability. Space programs, especially manned programs, are expensive both politically and economically. But IMO if ESA and even JAXA had the will to institute such programs back in the day, they would be far ahead of where China is now.

...

Problem?

They certainly could have... but they didn't. Had Qing China the political will and the state finances to make the correct series of choices... I'm sure China would be the pre-eminent world power right now...

In other words, "could have" is irrelevent. With respect to ship building I don't think the Chinese are up to par with the west, but when it comes to Chinese space programs I have no doubt that China is significantly ahead of Europe and Japan in a large number of areas.

Originally Posted by Schumacher

A consecutive wave of 4 missiles is enough to sink T45.

No. It wouldn't even be enough to sink the Type 052C, if by "sink" you actually mean "successfully hit". If it is, it would definitely be time to go back to the drawing board.

Originally Posted by PikeCowboy

They certainly could have... but they didn't. Had Qing China the political will and the state finances to make the correct series of choices... I'm sure China would be the pre-eminent world power right now...

In other words, "could have" is irrelevent. With respect to ship building I don't think the Chinese are up to par with the west, but when it comes to Chinese space programs I have no doubt that China is significantly ahead of Europe and Japan in a large number of areas.

This isn't a case of coulda shoulda woulda. Obviously in the manned space program the Chinese are ahead, but that is because they spend the resources on it, not that ESA or JAXA lacks the technological capability to achieve it. Global Positioning? Ahead of Japan for sure since it doesn't have one, but I am not convinced the Compass is technologically superior to the Galileo. Space launch vehicles? The Ariane 5 at 21t/10.5t (depending on variant) has superior payload capacity compared to the largest LM (LM-3B) at 12t/5.5t and similar success rate; this situation will not change for at least another several years, assuming LM-5 is successful; then again, LM-5 could be bested by Ariane 6 coming out around 2020. Space control? ESA is proven to out to Mercury, Venus and Mars, while China is only proven out to the moon. Remote sensing? Hard to say as this is probably the most secretive of the lot, but it would surprise me if China has already surpassed Western European technology in this regard. The only program where China is definitely ahead is the manned program AFAIK. I may be missing some categories, but these are what I can think of off the top of my head.

Originally Posted by Mysterre

Mostly this. Just because both ships have AESA and similarly ranged SAM's doesn't mean the quality of those systems are the same. In fact it's easier for me to assume that they are not than for you to assume that they are. No doubt China has come a long way with naval warfare systems but just by what I know of the PLAN I would say they are not up to state of the art in naval technology. The UK is. Problem?

Not really. It's perfectly fine to have antiship missiles and main guns on ships, but comparing these barely important systems to each other and stating one ship is better than another on these bases is skewing the truly important aspects of capital ships these days, which is air defense, and to a lesser extent ASW and strike. In that regard, the missile system, radar system, and combat management system of a given ship is the true basis of comparison between different ships. Even if the 052C had better antiship missiles and main guns than the Type 45, I would still give the edge to the Type 45 based on its anti-air systems which I guess to be better than the Type 052C, and like I said, my bet on this is more likely than yours, and you know it.

Type 052C does have better anti ship missiles because type 45 has none.

Well your argument is basically type 45 is better at air defence because the UK are better at developing air defense systems. All anyone can rebut with is to say is I disagree, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Bltizo

Type 052C does have better anti ship missiles because type 45 has none.

If you want to get technical, the Type 45 was built for but not with 2 quadruple rack Harpoons, so this situation could change, pretty much in an instant, if so desired.

Originally Posted by Bltizo

Well your argument is basically type 45 is better at air defence because the UK are better at developing air defense systems.

That's exactly right. Exactly.

Originally Posted by Bltizo

All anyone can rebut with is to say is I disagree, I suppose.

You can even go as far as Lion and say that the PLAN is ahead of the British in naval warfare technology if you want.