Speculation and facts on future Chinese vessels

What about the fabled missile-defence laser equipped destroyer?

Originally Posted by siegecrossbow

What about the fabled missile-defence laser equipped destroyer?

That crap is nothing but blogger speculation.

China may have laser blinding weapons in development or testing, but I highly doubt it's going to be deployed on ships anytime soon.

128 YJ-12 missiles... in addition to the 96 VLS cells? Lol...

Dude where did you pull these vessels from? I mean we all know about the 052D and the 095, supposed 054B and 081 but they're as tangible as smoke right now.
And why would the PLAN revert to steam turbines for "051D"? The only "source" I know which mentions that is the sinodefence page which hasn't been updated in years...
Also most people think the pair of conventional carriers will have cats, so quite different to the Varyag...

Originally Posted by Bltizo

128 YJ-12 missiles... in addition to the 96 VLS cells? Lol...

Dude where did you pull these vessels from? I mean we all know about the 052D and the 095, supposed 054B and 081 but they're as tangible as smoke right now.

Hence the term "speculation". I've read many articles regarding such matters, US prediction charts, and some blogs by military analysts, and most of them seem to agree with the tonnage and the rough timeline. 128 YJ-12 are not "in addition" to the 96 VLS cells. Like the Arleigh Burke, it is generally believed that the Type 052D will be able to carry cruise missiles and anti ship missiles in addition to SAMs in its VLS launchers.

The South Korean destroyers can carry 128 missiles. I don't see why future PLA-N destroyers can't.

Originally Posted by Bltizo

And why would the PLAN revert to steam turbines for "051D"? The only "source" I know which mentions that is the sinodefence page which hasn't been updated in years...

Funny thing is, I read the SinoDefence page after I got hold of initial talk of the Type 051D. It's from a place called Information Dissemination, which is written by a military analyst. He states that the Type 051D will be a larger version of the Type 051C, and will be built by Dalian Shipyard. He did some calculations and forecasts based on shipbuilding rates, and he predicts that the Type 052D and Type 051D should be revealed by 2013. That is pretty consistent with the 2012 prediction by other bloggers.

Originally Posted by Bltizo

Also most people think the pair of conventional carriers will have cats, so quite different to the Varyag...

I have no doubt that the Type 089 will be based on the Varyag.

Originally Posted by SinoSoldier

Hence the term "speculation". I've read many articles regarding such matters, US prediction charts, and some blogs by military analysts, and most of them seem to agree with the tonnage and the rough timeline. 128 YJ-12 are not "in addition" to the 96 VLS cells. Like the Arleigh Burke, it is generally believed that the Type 052D will be able to carry cruise missiles and anti ship missiles in addition to SAMs in its VLS launchers.

Great, I'll hold you to that then.

The South Korean destroyers can carry 128 missiles. I don't see why future PLA-N destroyers can't.

Maybe because the chinese shipbuliding industry despite all its advances and recently being crowned number one, still doesn't have the expertise to build such a large ship, with propulsion inparticular? And you said 96 VLS... how will you fit 128 missiles into 96?

I also think more VLS cells do not equate to a better ship.

Funny thing is, I read the SinoDefence page after I got hold of initial talk of the Type 051D. It's from a place called Information Dissemination, which is written by a military analyst. He states that the Type 051D will be a larger version of the Type 051C, and will be built by Dalian Shipyard. He did some calculations and forecasts based on shipbuilding rates, and he predicts that the Type 052D and Type 051D should be revealed by 2013. That is pretty consistent with the 2012 prediction by other bloggers.

How long ago was this post and which contributor posted the article?
If the PLAN went with a larger version of the 051C... well all I can say is that it would be a waste of money.

I have no doubt that the Type 089 will be based on the Varyag.

So you think it will have ski jumps?

Originally Posted by SinoSoldier

That crap is nothing but blogger speculation.

China may have laser blinding weapons in development or testing, but I highly doubt it's going to be deployed on ships anytime soon.

Did he siegecrossbow even mean that seriously...

Originally Posted by SinoSoldier

Hence the term "speculation". I've read many articles regarding such matters, US prediction charts, and some blogs by military analysts, and most of them seem to agree with the tonnage and the rough timeline. 128 YJ-12 are not "in addition" to the 96 VLS cells. Like the Arleigh Burke, it is generally believed that the Type 052D will be able to carry cruise missiles and anti ship missiles in addition to SAMs in its VLS launchers.

The South Korean destroyers can carry 128 missiles. I don't see why future PLA-N destroyers can't.

I assume you are referring to the KDX-III? This ship has 128 VLS cells (80 Mk.41 + 48 K-VLS) to carry those 128 missile. It also has a max displacement of 11,000 tons!

128 YJ-12 missiles in 96 VLS tubes? YJ-12 is said to be some top secret supersonic antiship cruise missile. I don't expect this missile to be small. Seen how big surface launched supersonic ASCMs are?

Here is the Mk 41 to compare - Link-1, Link-2

Originally Posted by SinoSoldier

That crap is nothing but blogger speculation.

China may have laser blinding weapons in development or testing, but I highly doubt it's going to be deployed on ships anytime soon.

and yours is not?

Originally Posted by Maggern

Did he siegecrossbow even mean that seriously...

Actually I did, to a certain degree. Rumors of such a weapon has been floating around Chinese military forums for quite a while now.

Originally Posted by siegecrossbow

Actually I did, to a certain degree. Rumors of such a weapon has been floating around Chinese military forums for quite a while now.

You mean hey-I'm-a-fanboy-and-I-think-this-might-be-real-like-the-earthquake-gun-of-the-US-and-the-international-conspiracy-of-space-reptiles, or do you mean there's actually indication of a serious effort in design and prototypization, outside mere studies on the US airborne laser system? Frankly, at the level laser technology is nowadays, I don't see how it would be small and effective enough to have any place in a saturation defense. Most likely, for it to be strong enough to knock out missiles (physically knocking them out, most likely the missiles within range would be in terminal guidance, hence blinding them or disabling controls would be of little use), it would be so large they would have to dedicate a whole ship to that sole role, which would make it yet another target to be protected (what would the energy demand even be? Is this even feasible without nuclear reactors? People are still discussing whether EMAL is possible without nuclear reactors)

As with all laser technology, I'm sure there's some studies into it. Technology advances rapidly in this area. But I don't see laser-equipped ships protecting a carrier in the Indian Ocean any time soon (though considering the open time frame of sinosoldier, I guess we cannot rule it out).

EDIT: Why am I even discussing this with myself? Even sinosoldier has waved it off as fanboy speculation...

Originally Posted by Maggern

You mean hey-I'm-a-fanboy-and-I-think-this-might-be-real-like-the-earthquake-gun-of-the-US-and-the-international-conspiracy-of-space-reptiles, or do you mean there's actually indication of a serious effort in design and prototypization, outside mere studies on the US airborne laser system? Frankly, at the level laser technology is nowadays, I don't see how it would be small and effective enough to have any place in a saturation defense. Most likely, for it to be strong enough to knock out missiles (physically knocking them out, most likely the missiles within range would be in terminal guidance, hence blinding them or disabling controls would be of little use), it would be so large they would have to dedicate a whole ship to that sole role, which would make it yet another target to be protected (what would the energy demand even be? Is this even feasible without nuclear reactors? People are still discussing whether EMAL is possible without nuclear reactors)

As with all laser technology, I'm sure there's some studies into it. Technology advances rapidly in this area. But I don't see laser-equipped ships protecting a carrier in the Indian Ocean any time soon (though considering the open time frame of sinosoldier, I guess we cannot rule it out).

EDIT: Why am I even discussing this with myself? Even sinosoldier has waved it off as fanboy speculation...

I would have dismissed it as fanboy nonsense (I usually do with claims like these) but the guy who leaked it, peishens, is a well respected "leaker" on CD who leaked J-20's first flight. I think it is good to maintain a healthy skepticism of such matters but when you have a reputable source like peishens you have to reevaluate your skepticism.

The U.S. is working on a similar system for ship defence, the Centurion and the tests so far are successful. They've tested it against drones and even unmanned boats and achieved promising results. Can't help but wonder when they are going to test it against cruise missiles.

Laser weaponry have been discussed by various big shrimps for years, so it isn't your usual fanboy speculation.

siegecrossbow, originally they said lasers would be installed on home grown aircraft carriers, but last I heard that plan was scrapped and the role of laser defense were to be assumed by the escorts, and I assume by escorts they meant 052D.

Originally Posted by Hyperwarp

I assume you are referring to the KDX-III? This ship has 128 VLS cells (80 Mk.41 + 48 K-VLS) to carry those 128 missile. It also has a max displacement of 11,000 tons!

128 YJ-12 missiles in 96 VLS tubes? YJ-12 is said to be some top secret supersonic antiship cruise missile. I don't expect this missile to be small. Seen how big surface launched supersonic ASCMs are?

Here is the Mk 41 to compare - Link-1, Link-2

Hence the 128 missiles on the Type 052D. With tonnage approximately 10000 tons, 128 missiles won't be too much of a difficulty.

The YJ-12 is not top secret. It's basically a supersonic anti ship missile. Heck, there's even a Wikipedia page on it, although we all know the accuracy of Wikipedia's information.

Originally Posted by i.e.

and yours is not?

As much as I want to, I currently do not possess a ship borne laser system.