This is a discussion on ROC subs within the Navy forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Sale of Submarines to Taiwan Stirs Controversy in US (Source: Voice of America news; issued Nov. 9, 2005) WASHINGTON --- ...
Banned
Sale of Submarines to Taiwan Stirs Controversy in US
(Source: Voice of America news; issued Nov. 9, 2005)
WASHINGTON --- Eight members of the U.S. Congress have sent a letter to the commander of U.S. forces in the Pacific, demanding an explanation of his alleged opposition to the proposed sale of submarines to Taiwan. The commander says he does not oppose the sale, but is concerned about raising tensions between Taiwan and China.
In their letter, the members of congress from both political parties accuse Admiral William Fallon of contradicting Bush administration policy. They quote news reports as saying his Pacific Command has told Taiwan officials to reconsider the plan to buy eight diesel submarines. And they say that any such statements could further delay the Taiwan legislature's passage of a supplementary defense budget, which has already been five years in the making.
Admiral Fallon says he does not oppose the submarine sale. But he says while the budget debate continues in Taipei there could be other defense systems that the government there might find more affordable in the short term. And in a VOA telephone interview from his headquarters in Hawaii, the admiral expressed another concern.
"I'd like to see Taiwan take steps to increase its own defensive capabilities. I think that would be a very, very wise move that would be helpful to themselves and to us. At the same time, I'd like to not see them taking steps which would be clearly provocative to the mainland," he said.
One of the members of congress who signed the letter to the admiral, Republican Representative Rob Simmons, disagrees with that approach. "Taiwan's efforts to defend itself are going to be provocative to mainland China because mainland China wants Taiwan. And it's almost impossible to defend yourselves without being provocative. So I think we need to get over that little hurdle," he said.
Representative Simmons, who spent five years in East Asia as a young CIA officer in the 1970s, is in his third term in congress. He is a member of the House Armed Services Committee. The congressman says that because the locations of submarines are difficult to pinpoint, they serve as a deterrent to any attack.
"One can say that a submarine is an offensive weapon. I will tell you that, in the same breath, it's also a defensive weapon. And I see nothing offensive about Taiwan acquiring eight diesel submarines when the People's Republic of China is acquiring dozens and dozens of submarines," he said.
The congressman acknowledges there is a local angle to his interest in Taiwan's purchase of submarines. The state he represents, Connecticut, is home to submarine design and building facilities that could benefit from any Taiwanese submarine purchase. But he also says selling the submarines to Taiwan would be good for the island, and would contribute to stability across the Taiwan Straits.
Admiral Fallon says the U.S. goal is to dissuade China from taking any military action to force reunification with Taiwan. Tensions have risen in recent months as some politicians on Taiwan have talked about declaring independence, and some in China have renewed the threat of military action to prevent that. Admiral Fallon says with all the trade and investment across the Straits there are plenty of reasons for the two sides to work together and avoid armed conflict, and he says U.S. forces in the Pacific and the U.S. commitment to Taiwan's defense are part of that. "It seems to me there are many, many more reasons why the future ought to be one of cooperation as opposed to conflict," he said.
But China has been building its military capabilities in ways that experts say could make it capable of challenging U.S. forces in the region, and could improve its chances of success if it tries to take control of Taiwan by force. For now, most experts believe that possibility is remote, partly because the Beijing government does not want to do anything to disrupt the 2008 Olympics it is preparing to host.
But after that, and with several more years of military buildup between now and then, some experts say China could make a move against Taiwan - a situation they say both the United States and Taiwan need to be ready to respond to.
has taiwan made any progress on the sub purchase yet recently there is talk of spainish subs based on the French P-600.but I doubt they will risk angering china just for the 8 billion
Member
I hear they're going to be older Guppy-class submarines. Not the Barbel or Albacore. If Taiwan got their hands on a few Barbel or Albacore-class submarines, I bet that they could produce one hell of a sub based on that design. Just look at Japan's Yushio-class and the Netherlands' Walrus-class.
Banned
I highly dont that taiwanese will attempt to buy/produce the Guppy sub that thing dates from WWII. its actual a mordernized version of the American fleet boat comparble to the Russian whiskey but inferior to the british oberon or the Russian romeo. these thing are retired in most navy by the 70s.It employes a inferior hull form and ancient weapon systemOriginally Posted by DPRKUnderground
barbel/albacore is also quite primitive now days designed in the late 50s they are about the level of Russian tangos. worse yet they have no noise reduction. If taiwan is desperate for a sub a copy of the barbel shoud be the minium
Junior Member
I agreed with Darth sidious. It would be highly unlikely ROC will attempt to produce/buy any of these subs. Actually, the best choice still remain for US built subs, since many Europeans are reluctant to sell submarines to Taiwan. But the budgets delayed still is not resolve yet, even it had. US seems to have second thought.
Member
I'm not saying they should copy the Guppy. That's just retarded. But they should make a submarine based on the Barbel or Albacore's hull. They were the first diesel submarines to employ the teardrop-hull. Japan and the Netherlands have used the Barbel as a base for thei submariens designs.
Junior Member
You just could not based on the Barbel hull, but make a modern hull out of it. It will take years to study and modifield the Barbell, and even by then Taiwan will not produce any modern subs that are compariable with Japan. If Taiwan want to built for their own, they should get better blueprint from more modern subs and expertise form US.
Member
Very true. But the thing is the US only uses nuclear subs. And no European country is willing to help out Taiwan's submarine program. The only country who I think could who doesn't really have amazing relations with China would be Brazil, Sweden, and India. But India hasn't produced an indigenous design. Brazil is still researching, and well Sweden doesn't want to sell a submarine to country that will most likely go to war.
Banned
so builting you own is a goos idea
they have ship yards capable of maitaining sub and tooling for LNG ships can be converted for production. they also just got the Hy-80 steel
Senior Member
Yup. They'll get them through the US if they sort the budget out.
Darth, do the Taiwanese really have the capability to build fairly decent subs? If so can't they just buy plans off the Americans (or anyone else for that matter)? It would be a lot easier for them to keep their reputation intact - after all, who knows where such information might come from?
"Japan is as much of a threat to China, as China is to Japan."
--FuManChu
Junior Member
I agreed that US could probably find a way to make subs for Taiwan, but it is not as easy as you might think. US has never bulit a diesel subs for decades, so they have to start from scrap.
Taiwan have some capability to build decent subs, but they do need help from US. The biggest problem is US do not have blueprint for diesel subs, US even need to get their blueprint from Europe. Since Europeans naions do not want to get involve into this, this create dilemma for US. People will know what the design come from, because there aren't that much blueprint out there.
Banned
Taiwan can construct the subs hull but not much else. design is not a big problem they can use th edutch copy of barbel as the starting point. But where would the sonar, engines and combat control system come from is beyond me.they conld try to smuggle/steal some parts but that a bit risky. country that license produce SSK can be bribed to give some assistance. the cost of builting new ones in us rules out that option
Junior Member
That is what I am saying, Taiwan could not built a modern subs without direct help from US. I doubt Taiwan could smuggle these kind of high tech without drawing attention, and it make no sense to do it that way whatsoever. Countries can be bribe to give assistance, but it takes more than that to built a decent subs.
Banned
criemal activity can yield surpiseing results
the taiwanese manage to smuggle out several Mark-48 torperdo in early 90s
they also got SUT torperdo from a certin south east asian country that opertes 209 sub( this country has some bad relation with china in the 50s which led to masscare of chinese civilians ) think the price was some old Lst/Lsm
but unless they are reely desperate they wont resort to such measure
Member
One of the plans was to build either a German or Dutch design in the US, but they refused. Unless the US can get the blueprints for a good design, Taiwan is out of luck.
New Member
Well, i don't think that the Taiwanese will pass a budget for purchase of 8 diesel subs. Even if Taiwan Navy does have 8 diesel subs by 2016, by that year, the PLAN will have a huge submarine force of 8-12 Yuan SSKs, 15 Song SSKs, 12 Kilo SSKs, 19 Ming SSKs, and 6-8 Type 093 SSNs. And that's just the PLAN sub force, excluding destroyers, frigates, FACs, and the PLANAF.
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