SinoDefence Forum

Gollevainen

But have you ever been in a catamaran on board Baltic....?? We are not talking about North Atlantic, but a almoust a lake, with wind less than 20 meter per seccond, becouse in those conditions they doesent even go to the sea.......And Dergath vibrates in Black sea for christ sake!!...

And the US vessels that you mentioned are SWATH hulled catamaran survey and research ships....I wouldnt say squat about similar size warship based on those...its completely different requirments....

__________________

bd popeye

So true. The Pacific is like a lake compared to the Atlantic. In all my time tarversing the Pacific I never incountered the heavy seas like in the Atlantic.

Can't picture Golly in Guam or Hawaii... too much "good stuff" there for him...Probally too warm also...Never seen a pale Finnish dude sweat...

__________________
Discover the Chinese and World Military picture threads!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


..And the Chinese Daily Life Photo thread!!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


..And don't forget

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"I am what I am.... 'Dat's all what I am"

swimmerXC

Wasn't the original arguement talking about "Replacing the Jianghus and sub-chasers?" in which case I would imagine those Cat Hulls to operate in the Pacific... not the Baltic, last time I checked China was bordered by the Pacific

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

isthvan

Mehdi since this is quite fictional thread about possible JiangHu class replacement I have proposed Kashtan as air defense system for ~2000t corvette that would replace older frigates. Reasons for my choice were capabilities of missile subsystem that could provide adequate air defense on more then sufficient range thus negating need for separate mid range air defense system... Naturally this was purely fictional and I have never said that China will buy more Kashtans(or that they will replace JiangHus whit corvette I have proposed)

I also had in mind that PLAN has ordered this system for two new Sovremenny class destroyers. As for type730/SA-N-11 combo It wouldn't be first time that China dump indigenous missile for superior foreign system(license/copy).

__________________
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. " Marcus Aurelius

Gollevainen

I ment, that You cannot really claim that Baltic would have any way better sea conditions that Pacific.

__________________

Sea Dog

I travelled in the South China Sea in the Fall one year, and sea states were pretty high. Another time through it was alot calmer, but choppy. This was in winter. It really depends on the season you travel these waters. Even though you can see varying high and low sea states in the Pacific, I agree, the Pacific is not like the Atlantic in any way. The Atlantic can be downright treacherous.

adeptitus

Here's some news on USN high-speed catamaraon HSV2 Swift operating in the Pacific:
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/n...cle/index_html

US Navy catamaran comes to port
30 Nov 2006

KUCHING: The US Navy high- speed catamaran, HSV2 Swift, will be making its first port call here today.

The 98-metre catamaran was delivered to the US Navy on Aug 15, 2003, and had operated as a mine warfare command-and-support ship, Marine Corps troops experimentation platform and high- speed lift for relief operations.

The Swift, which was assigned to the US Seventh Fleet, Pacific Command, had contributed to humanitarian efforts in the global community.

The vessel transported relief supplies to Aceh, Indonesia, following the December 2005 tsunami, New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina and Lebanon this year.

With its 70-tonne ramp, high speed manoeuvrability and precision navigation equipment, it could load, transport and unload up to 500 tonnes of equipment and cargo in remote or shallow draft ports without the use of tugs or cranes.

It had a crew of 45 officers and enlisted men, complemented by another 20 officers and enlisted men of the Navy Air Department. It also carried a platoon of 30 US marines.

The vessel carried a SH-60B Seahawk helicopter, the sea variant of the famous UH-60 Blackhawk, and three Rigid Hull Inflatable Boats or RHIBs.

Under the command of Commander Charles Rock, the Swift had circumnavigated the world three times and visited every continent, but Antarctica.

================================

If the catamaran had circumnavigated the world 3 times already, I'd say it's a stable enough platform to operate in the Pacific...

Gollevainen

yeas, a SWATH type catamaran...yarn...wake me up when we start seeing warships in that configuration...

__________________

crobato

From the pics shown, these parts are quite large and longer than the vessel itself with submarine shaped hulls. The difference between a catamaran and a SWATH is that the twin hulls are underwater, not because its bigger.

And Goll, I'm pretty sure you have not been to Guam, Hawaii, or anywhere in and near a US naval base, which I am sure I have.

Gollevainen

Well not to according to what I have seen...There should be something to call a bulge showing in the pix, but what I see its only common catamaran. SWATh would mean that large porpotion of the ship weigth and volume would be submerged...this isent the case with type22

And I havent seen you on Baltic ferryes either My point is that Baltic, a relatively calm inland sea, and yet, today, 16meters/seccond wind and the Cats stayed home. Are you saying that there isent these sort of wind in Chinese shore???

__________________

hallo84

This is commercial transportation you are talking about. It really has more to do with passenger comfort than ability of the ships. 33mile/hour wind is hardly limiting to ship travel but the swelling will probably throw passenger around causing seasickness. sea state 6 isn't the normal operating parameters of commercial liners anyways. Canadian ferries usually don't sail at anything over a sea state of 4.

crobato

The way I see it, if the hulls are underwater, and they are in the 022, that would constitute a SWATH, not the size of it. Increasing size increases the surface area and drag and that is contrary to the initials the SWATH stands for.


To be honest with you, Guam and Hawaii is a lot calmer than China's coast, and I have been in all three. I've also been in Singapore, Philippines, Taiwan, and Japan. Now tell me of your experiences in the Pacific Ocean.

joshuatree

USN - HSV-2 Swift
Displacement: 960 tons standard, 1668 tons full
Length: 98m
Beam: 27m
Draught: 3.4m

Launched in 03, currently in service with the USN on a lease basis. Served during this summer's Israel-Lebanon conflict. During flight deck certifications, aircraft recovery was made while boat was going at 43 knots in one recovery and had 66 knots apparent winds in another recovery.


USN - HSV-1 Joint Venture

Identical stats. Served in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Served between 98 and 04.


HMAS Jervis Bay (AKR-45)

Displacement: 1250 tons
Length: 86.62m
Beam: 26m
Draught: 3.6m

Served in East Timor. Service with RAN from 99-01.


And let's not forget USS Independence (LCS-2) under construction.

Displacement: 608 tons dead, 2784 tons full
Length: 127.4m
Beam: 31.6m
Draught: 3.9m

The catamarans Polynesians used may be 0.2 tons in displacement but the concept of top heavy or seaworthiness still applies and they were able to traverse the very same open ocean that we have today. So comparing them to 1000 ton corvettes is applicable.

Okay, maybe I need to clarify what I am suggesting for the hangar/pad. First of all, I don't envision these boats to carry more than 1 heli. Afterall, this thread did suggest Jianghu replacements and I interpreted it as what's a nice corvette/small frigate design, nothing bigger, otherwise why even bother with this thread since PLAN already is working on the 054a and plus there was an ideal frigate thread out there too.

Let me try to paint out this hangar. Let's just say for example, helipad is about 17m. So in my vision, the overall hangar footprint is 20m. The 3m is fixed like a normal hanger complete with fixed roof. This will store the equipment to service the heli. The 17m pad is basically like an aircraft carrier elevator. So we know it can handle the weight of the heli. I don't see this tech as being new or cutting edge. When a heli is taking off or landing, the pad is elevated to basically the rooftop level of the 3m section, call it the main deck if you wish. But once a heli is on the pad and shut down, the pad is lowered to the level of the lower deck. A light and telescopic roof extends out from the 3m section to cover the heli. I like to propose a revision to the beam of my suggested boat to 25m. So with the boats large footprint, the inherent stability of a tri, the elevating pad should be feasible in regards to top weight when you factor in the proposed size of the boat, the lack of other top heavy items like a funnel. My proposed boat is 2000 tonnes. How much more upsizing are you suggesting? If anything, I noticed that seems to be your answer to every design discussion?

Baltic Sea may be a very choppy body of water but you do need to realize PLAN will not be operating there anytime soon. The Pacific does have its moments of bad weather but nothing cat/tris can't reasonably tackle. Also, in the HSV2's case, a T foil extends into the water during high speed transit for added stability. I think designs of cat/tris have reached a stage where their slight disadvantage with a monohull is more than compensated with the pluses it offers.

Pointblank

Things can easily slip in unnoticed until the last minute, such as low-flying aircraft, and small patrol boats. A 76mm gun can reach out and touch those targets especially if they are out of range of the 30mm, and a missile is too expensive to use against the target. You want to use a expensive anti-ship missile against a small patrol boat? Many small corvettes still mount a main gun, and many surface combatants also still carry a main gun, because of the main gun's cheapness and effectiveness as a last ditch weapon.

tphuang

Well, we will see I guess. HQ-7 isn't any slower than other missiles of its class like RAM and Barak. SD-10 and something like that are normally used for the medium layer (like ESSM). That's where the speculation for HQ-16 based on PL-12 came from imo.
I guess it's a faith thing. We had this person close to the project on a Chinese forum a while back. He mentionned that Dutch goalkeeper showed in tests that it can shoot down 3 missiles before they reach 600 m of the ship. I mentionned this in the 054A thread and the plan ideal frigate thread.