PLAN submarines Thread II

[Jeff Head]

There was the original Yuan (330) from 2005. Then they built 3 Yuan (331-333) in the second wave. The first 4 were 039A.

By my calculation, there has been at least 3 039B joining service that were built in WC and 1 that is about to join from JN shipyard. And now, we have that new 039B that just got launched a while ago in WC.

So, close to 8 Yuans in service and a couple of more under construction.

So, you count 4 Yuan (I), 4 Yuan (II), and the new one for a total of 9. How does escobar arrive at eight Yuan I, 5 Yuan II, and the last one? 9 is a good number, but 14 is a really strong number.

How many Yuans do you think the PLAN will build if they now have nine launched? 16? 20?

[asif iqbal]

Do u think China will ever use SSK like Yuan to escort a task force or would that only be a SSN?

Also how many SSN China have? Type 093?

[Jeff Head]

Very doubtful that SSK would be used to escort either a SAG (Surface action Group) or a carrier group. They are simply too slow.

Now, for slower Amphibious groups, particularly closer in within the 1st or perhaps 2nd Island chain, that would be possible since those groups move much slower...but also not as likely.

I believe the PLAN still has 3 or 4 091s and probably as many as 4 093s...any of which could be used for such escort duties.

[franco-russe]

I have (reluctantly) come to the concluision that there are now three HAN (403, 404, 405) and four SHANG (407, 408, 409, 411).

[Jeff Head]

I have (reluctantly) come to the concluision that there are now three HAN (403, 404, 405) and four SHANG (407, 408, 409, 411).

That's what I think too. This gives the PLAN seven nuclear attack subs...plus whatever either has already come out of, or is building with the type 095 program...which I do not know. Still, they now could easily escort their carrier group with one of these subs, probably a Type 093 once they reach that stage.

[franco-russe]

How does escobar arrive at eight Yuan I, 5 Yuan II, and the last one? 9 is a good number, but 14 is a really strong number.

How many Yuans do you think the PLAN will build if they now have nine launched? 16? 20?

escobar quoted the figure I suggested.

I arrived at my estimate of YUAN’s by collecting all available observations at Wuhan and in naval bases since the launch of Hull 1 on 31.05.04 and its arrival at Yulin in December 2006, where it is now 330 (last observed January 2010).

They launched Hull 2 in 2006 and two every year between 2007 and 2009, with Hull 8 arriving at Shanghai-Wusong in March 2010, as noted before.

One is at Yulin, 4 have been seen at Daxiedao and the rest must be in North Sea Fleet, where the first (probably Hull 4) arrived at Lushun in June 2008.

YUAN II Hull 1 also went to NSF, arriving at Xiaopingdao in March 2011.

All submarine facilities in NSF, i.e. Qingdao submarine base and Qianjin Navy Yard, Xiaopingdao, Shazikou and Lushun, were covered on 29.03.11. Two YUAN’s were seen at Xiaopingdao and one at Shazikou. Qingdao was covered again on 20.04.11 and shows five SONG/YUAN in the submarine base and one at Qianjin Yard.

As mentioned above, there is very good evidence that 16 YUAN's were ordered, but I think they will build four more (to replace the four oldest MING's, ito be precise).

[escobar]

escobar quoted the figure I suggested.

I arrived at my estimate of YUAN’s by collecting all available observations at Wuhan and in naval bases since the launch of Hull 1 on 31.05.04 and its arrival at Yulin in December 2006, where it is now 330 (last observed January 2010).

They launched Hull 2 in 2006 and two every year between 2007 and 2009, with Hull 8 arriving at Shanghai-Wusong in March 2010, as noted before.

One is at Yulin, 4 have been seen at Daxiedao and the rest must be in North Sea Fleet, where the first (probably Hull 4) arrived at Lushun in June 2008.

YUAN II Hull 1 also went to NSF, arriving at Xiaopingdao in March 2011.

All submarine facilities in NSF, i.e. Qingdao submarine base and Qianjin Navy Yard, Xiaopingdao, Shazikou and Lushun, were covered on 29.03.11. Two YUAN’s were seen at Xiaopingdao and one at Shazikou. Qingdao was covered again on 20.04.11 and shows five SONG/YUAN in the submarine base and one at Qianjin Yard.

As mentioned above, there is very good evidence that 16 YUAN's were ordered, but I think they will build four more (to replace the four oldest MING's, ito be precise).

Sorry i'm confused. So there are 8/9 YUAN I and 2/5 YUAN II ??

[franco-russe]

Apologies for being unclear (but submarines are quite difficult and often confusing). To be very clear, my estimate is:

YUAN I - 8 in service

YUAN II - 3 in service, two fitting out at Jiangnan and Wuhan, respectively.

Fitting out took about 8 months for Hulls 2 and 3. If the Jiangnan unit is the same, it should make its appearance quite soon.

[escobar]

Apologies for being unclear (but submarines are quite difficult and often confusing). To be very clear, my estimate is:

YUAN I - 8 in service

YUAN II - 3 in service, two fitting out at Jiangnan and Wuhan, respectively.

Fitting out took about 8 months for Hulls 2 and 3. If the Jiangnan unit is the same, it should make its appearance quite soon.

No need to apologize. As always you did a great job.
thanks.

[tphuang]

So, you count 4 Yuan (I), 4 Yuan (II), and the new one for a total of 9. How does escobar arrive at eight Yuan I, 5 Yuan II, and the last one? 9 is a good number, but 14 is a really strong number.

How many Yuans do you think the PLAN will build if they now have nine launched? 16? 20?

They will probably get to 16 with 4 Yuan I and 12 Yuan II. The new submarine is of a different submarine class, so I'm not going to include it in the Yuan count.

Do u think China will ever use SSK like Yuan to escort a task force or would that only be a SSN?

Also how many SSN China have? Type 093?

No and they have at least 4 093s (2 in SSF and 2 in NSF). They might have one more in NSF. Not sure exactly.

Apologies for being unclear (but submarines are quite difficult and often confusing). To be very clear, my estimate is:

YUAN I - 8 in service

YUAN II - 3 in service, two fitting out at Jiangnan and Wuhan, respectively.

Fitting out took about 8 months for Hulls 2 and 3. If the Jiangnan unit is the same, it should make its appearance quite soon.

you are wrong about Yuan I

[franco-russe]

Well, I did write that PLAN has four SHANG (Type 093), 407 and 408 at Shazikou, 409 and 410 at Yulin, so I do not see the problem there.

[tphuang]

i was just referring to Yuan I.
ä¸*国海军æˆ�功ç*”制智能é�¶é›· å�¯æ¨¡æ‹Ÿæ½œè‰‡æ°´ä¸‹æœºåŠ¨-- 军事科技--ä¸*国科技网

高原山路蜿蜒，群山环抱间，突然出现一湖绿水：海军某水中兵器试验场到了。

谁能想象，这座高原靶场完成了数千余次水中兵器科研试验任务，海军各型水中兵器都是从这里走向 部队。

“咱们是把守水中兵器的最后一道关口。隐患一旦溜到战场，就是哭爹喊娘也没用！”和这群深山里的军代表们交 谈，他们说得最多的是责任。

过去，检验鱼雷引信，试验用雷保持固定的姿势航行，引信在标准范围内启动就算过关。一次试验做完后，军代表 孙权却留在现场迟迟没走：“实战中鱼雷攻击是全方位的。现在是一个角度，谁能保障引信能在每个角度都起爆？ ”

一夜未眠。第二天，他拿出了全方位对鱼雷引信进行考核的方案。被测鱼雷一会朝前，一会朝后，一会侧转，来回 跑了60多趟，问题出现了：在某一角度引信不能按要求及时启动。这意味着，在这个角度该型鱼雷 没有攻击力。

上级震动。经过彻底整改，新型鱼雷的战技术性能得到完善。

某新型鱼雷，一打再打，合格率都不高。这涉及到一批战雷的交付。一条雷造价数百万，造价昂贵，工业部门通过 多方向总代表胡泊施压。

高压面前，胡泊坚守自己的底线——我不能放弃原则！

同时，他组织大家全力查找原因。一点一点地研究水下每一段航程，问题终于浮出水面：水下声靶有问题。调整后 再打，鱼雷全都合格。

诱饵，是潜艇诱骗敌人声纳和鱼雷的“替身”，它的性能直接关乎着潜艇的生存概率。长期以来，我潜艇部队装备 的诱饵航速慢、航程短、动作机械。

研发诱饵是一块十分难啃的骨头，原型诱饵从立项到最后定型，整整花费了20年时间。其结果是：难以胜任使命 。

军代表们迎难而上。在接下来5年间，在一没立项、二无经费的基础上，他们联合工业部门，硬是将一型全新概念 的智能诱饵研发出来，性能大大提升。

水下攻潜训练一直让世界各国海军很纠结。用真潜艇当目标来打，危险系数很大，不安全；做一个假潜艇在水下游 ，成本太高，不能重复利用，还不逼真……海军决定研制新型机动智能靶雷，模拟潜艇在水下机动。

军代表廖富魁挑起了这副重担。他和有关厂所技术人员一起，做试验，攻难关，很快研制成功智能靶雷，部队攻潜 训练难题迎刃而解。

2005年，这个代表室果断地引进项目负责制——一人主管一个型号。

这意味着，从装备进场到交付部队，从头到尾一人管到底，出了问题，你来处理；遇到难题，你组织 攻关。

第一个吃螃蟹的，是原本管数据分析的孙权。某新型鱼雷交给他时，上级提了一个要求——既要摸着石头过河，又 不得让河水淹着！

“当时，孙权一路跌跌撞撞。有时真不忍心，想去扶一把，但还是咬咬牙忍住了——孩子要走稳路，必须有这么一 个过程！”原总代表冯奇说，“后来，孙权还真走稳了，项目管得井井有条！”

项目负责制对军代表们的锻炼，绝不只孙权一人受益。青年军代表马琪，先后负责了5型装备的研制监造，获军队 科技进步奖2项。某软件开发公司先后两次发出邀请，给出年薪20万的优厚待遇，都被他一一谢绝。他说：“部 队，是我成就事业的最好舞台。”(记者 钱晓虎 通讯员 赵湘峰)

talks about a naval underwater testing ground on the highlands. It says all of the naval underwater weaponry are tested here. Basically a place where they test out and find problems in new torpedoes and mines.

It says torpedoes each cost several million RMB to make, so they are very expensive and pressured not to use too many.

It talks about creating an intelligent underwater drone to simulate the movements of submarines for testing purpose.

[Equation]

i was just referring to Yuan I.
ä¸*国海军æˆ�功ç*”制智能é�¶é›· å�¯æ¨¡æ‹Ÿæ½œè‰‡æ°´ä¸‹æœºåŠ¨-- 军事科技--ä¸*国科技网


talks about a naval underwater testing ground on the highlands. It says all of the naval underwater weaponry are tested here. Basically a place where they test out and find problems in new torpedoes and mines.

It says torpedoes each cost several million RMB to make, so they are very expensive and pressured not to use too many.

It talks about creating an intelligent underwater drone to simulate the movements of submarines for testing purpose.

Cool, but couldn't a computer simulations (perhaps done by a super computer) do the trick as far as testing?

[delft]

You can do a lot with super computers such as simulating situations too difficult or even impossible to test, but it is all too easy to miss some detail in your simulation that you would have found in real life testing. So you also use the real tests as a control on your simulations.

[hmmwv]

talks about a naval underwater testing ground on the highlands.

The base used to be in the middle of the Qinghai Lake, it has since moved to a different, less tourist friendly location.