PLAN submarines Thread II

[crobato]

There is no sonar there,. You see they also do this on the Romeos. The main purpose is to lower the flow noise.

[lilzz]

a CCTV report that the latest indigenous submarines are equipped with air defense missiles (the missiles look to be from QW series).

which subs have such missiles against ASW planes?
The Yuan or the 093, 094?

[RedMercury]

Not surprising nor news. Russian/Soviet subs also had this. But it really is a last ditch weapon, not really something to be deployed as a first defense against aerial ASW assets.

[lilzz]

Not surprising nor news. Russian/Soviet subs also had this. But it really is a last ditch weapon, not really something to be deployed as a first defense against aerial ASW assets.

Why do you say it's a last resort weapon? That's only way to kill a plane from a sub. Also I like to know how it work. Since the subs under the water, radar won't work, how does it detect the ASW plane?

[crobato]

If the sub is at periscope depth, it may have a periscope that acts as a radar warning reciever, which can also determine roughly the distance and bearing of the emitting source. Won't be hard to determine if its a plane and a plane searching for submarines by its emission, and the way it travels.

This is only a last ditch defensive tactic at best.

[lilzz]

How about using IRST to detect the plane.
What about develope a combo of SAM+torpedo, launch like a torpedo and it moves away from the sub, and as it surface it blast up like a missile. So this way, enemies can't detect where the missile is actually launched therefore can't track the sub.

[crobato]

How about using IRST to detect the plane.
What about develope a combo of SAM+torpedo, launch like a torpedo and it moves away from the sub, and as it surface it blast up like a missile. So this way, enemies can't detect where the missile is actually launched therefore can't track the sub.

IRST detection of plane isn't very far, especially at sea environment. We are still talking direct line of sight and WVR ranges.

Also a plane can drop sonobuoys. These things floating in the water can relay radio messages to the patrolling plane if a sub is nearby. A patrolling MPA can drop a torpedo in cruise and passive search mode.

QW series is a MANPADS. That's portable SAM to you and that has a very limited range. So don't entertain notions it can be used as a first strike against patrolling aircraft.

[lilzz]

ICBM can launch under water, VLS SAM should able to do the same /w some modifications. If they somehow perfect the SAM like I mentioned torpedo+SAM, then all P-3 plane and ASW helicopters would be finished.

btw I also like to point if implmenting a remote controll surfaced mini-sub that has the radar and IR seeker that help to guide the bigger sub.

[crobato]

ICBM can launch under water, VLS SAM should able to do the same /w some modifications. If they somehow perfect the SAM like I mentioned torpedo+SAM, then all P-3 plane and ASW helicopters would be finished.

Let me repeat to you about this again. The is based on a MANPADS. That is a missile small enough to be held on a shoulder. That's isn't going to give you much range at best. 4 to 6km at best.

A light torpedo in a cruise setting can go anywhere from 10km to 25km.

The SAM on the Song class is launched through a small hole in the sail. That means it can only launch one at a time. This is very limited. And you can only store a few.

[Pointblank]

ICBM can launch under water, VLS SAM should able to do the same /w some modifications. If they somehow perfect the SAM like I mentioned torpedo+SAM, then all P-3 plane and ASW helicopters would be finished.

btw I also like to point if implmenting a remote controll surfaced mini-sub that has the radar and IR seeker that help to guide the bigger sub.

A missile launch like that will attract almost every single ASW platform in the area to come in and respond. So instead of 1 P-3 above you or 1 helicopter, you suddenly may have 10 P-3's or helicopters buzzing above you.

[crobato]

The train of thought is going to lead to one thing after another. The next thing would be, why not design an SSK with many VLS on the back to hold longer ranged or regular SAMs.

First of all, SSKs don't have the room to hold the radar necessary to do the long range search, tracking and guidance to support a SAM battery.

Second, using such equipment, radar and all, will only draw attention to the sub and get attacked by a posse of ships, planes and helos.

Third, such an equipment uses too much electrical power, and battery power is life or death for a sub.

Fourth, assuming you get around these problems using datalinking and networking, this is never a good idea to begin with, because for the cost of such a sub, you can get an AD destroyer or large frigate with VLS and phase array.

Finally, it all takes up too much space. I'm sure some people are inspired by the art work of the Amur 950 with the VLS on the back for AshMs. This may raise some idea that having a VLS variation and shoot SAMs instead. I'm sure some of you have seen that "PLAN New Generation Submarine" artwork that has been going around in some forums and websites, which I won't bother to post here. Essentially the artwork is ripped off from Rubin's Amur 950 cutaway artwork on their website.

http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/eng/index.htm

Survival of any conventional submarine relies on its batteries. The more batteries it has, the longer it can stay deep underwater. Battery power is the lifeblood for anything an SSK does, from sensors to speed. So why waste it on VLS tubes and other space consuming things, when you can use every spare square foot of space along the hull buttom for batteries and more batteries. You can never have enough batteries. To be honest I wasn't really impressed in seeing that cutaway even from Rubin.

[lilzz]

A missile launch like that will attract almost every single ASW platform in the area to come in and respond. So instead of 1 P-3 above you or 1 helicopter, you suddenly may have 10 P-3's or helicopters buzzing above you.

Only attack those plane patrolling alone.

[Autumn Child]

what about nuclear subs? are they able to equip SAMs since they are larger and no issues with batteries.

[Pointblank]

Only attack those plane patrolling alone.

How can you tell? That's the issue.

If I was a ASW commander, I would gladly trade a P-3 or a ASW helicopter for a excellent chance to sink a hostile submarine. All you have done is to say "Here I am", "I'm hostile", "And come sink me". A submarine's best attribute is stealth. If I was a sub captain, I would prefer to sneak away and dive deep from a ASW helicopter or aircraft, not seek to shoot it down.

[lilzz]

How can you tell? That's the issue.

.

The bigger sub have detachable remote control unmanned mini-sub semi-surfaced to find out what's going on.