PLAN submarines Thread II

[kroko]

From my point of view, PLAN manufacturing and deployement of type 041 Qing class newest diesel (probably in future AIP) boat , is simplest Russian view on deployement of their Kilo type submarines.As per many Western literature and forums, Kilo submarines are for littoral use , Russian submarine doctrine especially in Pacific fleet, their means for use is "protective cover of strategic atomic boats in their patrol areas".....By PLAN perspective they probably canot reach Hawai and US west coast , and efficiently provide cover for type 092 and 094 , so they build larger boar, with efficeint range , and time to remain in designated patrol area of SSBNs.

The soryu class submarine from japan has similar size to this submarine, and japan doesnt have nuclear submarines. I dont think that providing cover for nuclear subs is this new sub mission.

[exeter]

Well I said this is only my point of view. When you look at Japan and China strategy in use of sub forces, you will sea that is complete difference.Japan still using (but easily transforming) in US spy strategy of lay still and listen the communications, Soryu is open ocean with enough range to cover Japan , and Okhotsk offcourse.China in other hand have littoral coast defence , sub for this is Ming and Kilo , open ocean convoys and blocade is Song (we are talking about diesel-electric boats) , nad protecting cover for SSBN remain only one , and that is new Qing.By the way Rusiian strategie for providnig cover of SSBN patrol area with diesel , provide very good sucess , still today.US Navy will never admit this or denied offcourse.

[Riverman]

[antiterror13]

Well I said this is only my point of view. When you look at Japan and China strategy in use of sub forces, you will sea that is complete difference.Japan still using (but easily transforming) in US spy strategy of lay still and listen the communications, Soryu is open ocean with enough range to cover Japan , and Okhotsk offcourse.China in other hand have littoral coast defence , sub for this is Ming and Kilo , open ocean convoys and blocade is Song (we are talking about diesel-electric boats) , nad protecting cover for SSBN remain only one , and that is new Qing.By the way Rusiian strategie for providnig cover of SSBN patrol area with diesel , provide very good sucess , still today.US Navy will never admit this or denied offcourse.

Remember China also have 091 and 093 nuclear subs for providing cover to SSBN, nuclear subs is much more effective for that task

[A.Man]

This 039B Sub, rather than Wuhan, was built by Jiangnan in Shanghai.

[antiterror13]

This 039B Sub, rather than Wuhan, was built by Jiangnan in Shanghai.

Quality wise, would it be better or worse ?

[A.Man]

Quality wise, would it be better or worse ?

I Don't Know About Subs.

But Jiangnan in Shanghai, among Chinese shipbuilders, is the Benchmark.

[schlieffen]

antiterror13------I think it would be more cost-effective to use AIP-equipped diesel subs to escort SSBNs, in the case of Chinese operations.

The main patrolling area, presumably South China Sea, is too close to major sea/air bases of potential hostile forces, and is less secure than the fortified sea of Barents and Okhotsk. All passages to open seas are controlled or closely monitored by western forces, so IMO it’s too risky to travel far and fast for Chinese SSBNs. They better stay in low speed silent running throughout their entire patrol and stay close to Chinese coasts where they can be well supported by other PLAN assets. SSNs will be an overkill in these circumstances, as high speed is redundant. AIP-equipped SSKs could offer enough underwater endurance to escort SSBNs on their voyage back/forth the patrol areas, and even accompany the boomers for much of their patrol if rotated for refreshments. In addition, while SCS is more prone to surface/air threats, it does have one advantage: the extensive continental shelf, shallow water and VERY busy coastal traffic/ fishery activities make it very unsuitable for foreign SSNs to operate, especially close to Chinese shore. On the other hand it is precisely the environment where advanced SSKs could maximise their effectiveness. The SSN-774s might be more comfortable in littoral water but there’s only a few of them, and the backbone of USN SSN fleet is still the legacy cold war boats.

Technical issues aside, I don’t think the political atmosphere would allow the USN subs to use the same close tailing tactic employed during the cold war, especially if Chinese boomers operate very close to home water. High tempo nuclear submarine operations literally off the Chinese shore--doesn’t sound like a good idea. If anything went wrong the diplomatic consequences would be very, very messy.

Above all, the number of SSNs in PLAN inventory is just too small and is unlike to boost in the near future. If you use them for boomer escort, few if any could be left for offensive missions.

[Jeff Head]

The SSN-774s might be more comfortable in littoral water but there’s only a few of them, and the backbone of USN SSN fleet will be legacy cold war boats in the foreseeable future.

There are already eight SSN-774 (Virginia Class) boats built and commissioned. Over the next 4-5 years, another eight will be commissioned.

There are also 3 Sea Wolf class submarines.

By 2016 that means there will be closing in on 20 of the higher tech boats available for such duties.

In the 10 years following that, another 16 will be built.

If the US Navy feels it is important enough, they already have enough Virginia class and Sea Wolf boats (11 right now) to use tagging the new PLAN boomers when they come out into deeper waters. My guess is that that type of thing has already been occurring in the China Sea.

[montyp165]

At the very least the PLAN needs more SSNs for offensive and counterforce operations, even if it takes a while to make them on par technologically with the best US SSNs.

[MwRYum]

At the very least the PLAN needs more SSNs for offensive and counterforce operations, even if it takes a while to make them on par technologically with the best US SSNs.

In theory it is so, but in reality the Chinese can't fulfill such demand with their current budget and production capability - remember they' do have an ongoing carrier programme and modernization of their surface combatents - manpower and major changes will be required in their defense strategy. The only thing that can be said for certain is that they are trying to fulfill those demands slowly and gradually push towards open waters where the USN is still unchallenged.

So by the the range of operations in the meantime, modern SSKs with AIP would be the more logical - if not more economical - solution.

[antiterror13]

100% agree, USN has been sole superpower for over 60 years with huge budget. PLAN just started modernization about 15-20 years ago with a very limited budget and backward tech in the first 10 years modernization

[schlieffen]

You're right on the Virginia class. But the Sea Wolfs are not designed with littoral operations in mind and I'm not sure if they are better optimised for these missions than legacy 688Is.

As to tagging Chinese SSBNs, I think it really depends on how far the chinese boomers will come out of home water. When I said close to shore, I meant less than 200 n.miles where average depth is less than 400 feets. Operating in these environments would be a challenge even for the Virginia class, and is also too politically risky IMO. Imagine it Collide with something or trapped by fisherman's nets. Of course patrolling in shallow water have its own problems for boomers. In any event the 094s are yet to be fully operational with JL-2 so who knows.

[franco-russe]

US nuclear submarines have vast experience with operating in the Barents Sea, watching their Soviet/Russian counterparts, and the Barents is pretty shallow, too. This has not been without a number of unfortunate incidents over the years, despite the political risks involved.

[schlieffen]

That was at the height of the cold war. In those days USN warships openly intruded soviet territory water and I don't see it happening today.