PLAN submarines Thread II

[Bltizo]

If it is 6500 tons that is...

There's still some confusion over the actual role of the "Qing". Some people think it's a one off "test sub" to supplement the PLAN's current single Golf or maybe it's a cruise missile carrier or even AShBM carrier...

[tanlixiang28776]

At 6500 tons, the Qing should be bigger than the IJN's I-400 submersible aircraft carrier.

Thats just the upper limit going by dimensions. I think its close to 6000 tons myself.

[kroko]

The middle and right subs are newly launched improved Yuan class. The one on the right is the Qing. Comparatively it is much larger than the already sizable 4200 ton improved Yuans. The tower alone is at least twice as large and even partially submerged it is longer than the Yuan fully afloat. It is massive.

I think that the submarine you call Qing is in fact the improved Yuan. In the GE photo, that submarine has 10 decoratives semi-rounds, the same as improved Yuan (and the sail has the length of 4 semi-rounds, the same as improved Yuan)



Compare to Improved Yuan below:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6375/039bsep15.jpg

while the submarine near it has 9 semi-rounds, the same as the newly built "normal" Yuan in the photo below:

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8716/yuan05dec31.jpg

[tanlixiang28776]

I think that the submarine you call Qing is in fact the improved Yuan. In the GE photo, that submarine has 10 decoratives semi-rounds, the same as improved Yuan (and the sail has the length of 4 semi-rounds, the same as improved Yuan)

The front one is the improved Yuan.

I don't care what we call the new sub. Qing, 039B, Improved Improved Yuan.

I care about the capabilities. You measured it yourself and that was only the submerged portion.

[i.e.]

The big one is one-off replacement for "Great Wall 200" the old SLBM missile testing boat.

[tanlixiang28776]

The big one is one-off replacement for "Great Wall 200" the old SLBM missile testing boat.

That would be redundant as SLBMs are already in service in type 094s that would certainly not fit in this sub.

[kroko]

The front one is the improved Yuan.

I don't care what we call the new sub. Qing, 039B, Improved Improved Yuan.

I care about the capabilities. You measured it yourself and that was only the submerged portion.

No. The submarine behind is the improved Yuan. You can see that it is the bigger one.

About the capabilities, neither you and me have any ideia of its capabilities. You cant judge its capabilities only by its size. Theres much more than that.

[duskylim]

That new submarine, whatever you wish to call it, is a surprise to me.

China just started mass-producing the new, improved (sounds like a detergent commercial) Yuans with a slightly larger size and more hydrodynamic fin (conning tower).

Now just like when they started to mass-produce the Song-class, then they spring this new model out.

Although I am an avid reader of and highly-respect Hui Tong, I think his repeated thesis of technical problems delaying the commissioning of the new submarines is incorrect.

Its more of a fly-before-you-buy situation - something like that took place when the Oliver Hazard Perry frigates were brought out.

The 1st model took a long time to produce, and the US Navy took an equally long time to evaluate it.

I believe I see a pattern emerging - first with the new model Song's - taking the longest for shake down and training.

After an extensive evaluation (much more than just a shakedown) the PLAN gives it checklist for improvements before making the big serial order.

This was just what happened in the case of the Perry-class frigates.

A second 'improved' model is then produced and tested against the PLAN requirements, if they are met, then this improved model (in the case of the Song - the 039G) becomes the production model.

Of course this took longer in the case of the Song as so many new technologies were being tried out - and also for the PLAN as they had to train crews for the new submarine.

When the Yuan appeared the same pattern can be observed.

No surprise that the 1st model, takes a long time to evaluate then, after a long series of improvements and modifications a second or third improved model is evaluated - then mass-production begins.

Now this new submarine (039B?) appears 3 years after the 1st Yuan, and is now undergoing trials just as the Yuan's enter mass-production.

If as the Pakistani's claim they will purchase then license-produce Chinese model AIP boats that can only be the 039A - Yuans.

China will be providing Pakistan with a submarine which she can already mass-produce and which has already undergone considerable testing and use - a proven design.

This new sub is very interesting.

If as you claim, the Yuans displace more than 4000 tons surfaced? and already use AIP then they alongside the latest Japanese models with be the most modern and certainly most numerous conventional class of submarines in Asia-Pacific waters.

These new boats at an estimated 6000+ tons surfaced would very easily be the largest conventional subs in service in any navy.

The real question here is what is their mission?

Patrol in very distant waters - off Midway, Hawaii or Guam? Maybe even off the US West Coast?

What is there armament?

Perhaps not just conventional torpedoes but also a wide array of submarine-launched cruise missiles - both anti-ship and land-attack.

Their size certainly does not preclude such extensive armament.

Does China want to park a few dozen strike boats off major US bases and strategic points for 'conventional' strike and retaliation?

Only future events will answer our speculations.

[i.e.]

That would be redundant as SLBMs are already in service in type 094s that would certainly not fit in this sub.

why would it be redundant?

and how would the current and newer SLBMs "certainly not fit in this sub"?

what do you think the over sized conning tower is for?

This is a weapons testing boat.

[tanlixiang28776]

why would it be redundant?

and how would the current and newer SLBMs "certainly not fit in this sub"?

what do you think the over sized conning tower is for?

This is a weapons testing boat.

Why would we need to test what is already in service?

Wouldn't launching SLBMs from 094s make more sense instead of making a new sub just for testing?

[kroko]

why would it be redundant?

and how would the current and newer SLBMs "certainly not fit in this sub"?

what do you think the over sized conning tower is for?

This is a weapons testing boat.

I dunno. You see, improved yuan has torpedo launch tubes. i dont know if a SLBM test platform is supposed to have them

[Bltizo]

I dunno. You see, improved yuan has torpedo launch tubes. i dont know if a SLBM test platform is supposed to have them

Because a SLBM test platform definitely won't be used to test other things such as torpedos...

I'm not sure if this sub is a test platform, simply because we can't seem to see the VLS tube in the conning tower as of yet and also because this sub does have some not redundant noise reduction features -- why put all this into a whole new, nearly completely new design (compared to the Yuan) which is just going to be a test submarine?

I suppose we'll know in a year or two when the second of these should come out. If it doesn't then this current sub is probably a test platform.

[tanlixiang28776]

I measured the new sub from the beginning of the tail to the front and got 84.5 meters

I did the same with the Yuan in the middle and got 66.5 meters

I measured the Yuan on the right from tail to front and got 75 meters.

Going by that proportion the new sub would be 95 meters long.

[tphuang]

Big isn't it? The Qing class on the left is enormous for an SSK

huh? Qing class?

The middle and right subs are newly launched improved Yuan class. The one on the right is the Qing. Comparatively it is much larger than the already sizable 4200 ton improved Yuans. The tower alone is at least twice as large and even partially submerged it is longer than the Yuan fully afloat. It is massive.

Where did you get Yuan is 4200 ton? All along, I was going by the assumption that Yuan is larger than Song and about the same size as Kilo (around 3000 ton in displacement)

As far as I know it is a SSK. And I think it would be around 6000 tons. Its dimensions certainly reflect that more. And Chinese nuclear subs get bigger every time not smaller.

again, don't make up numbers randomly.

Considering that this is a SSK (China does not build SSN at WuChang), what kind of powerplant arrangement do you think is needed to power something that's 6000 ton in displacement? Please consider their existing power plant options with Song and Yuan.

The Soryu you are talking about has known dimensions. I assume your measurement for the Qing is for the part that is not submerged only. So adjust that a little more.

Lets assume 92-95 meters by 9.8 to 10.5 meters for the fully exposed Qing. Increase in height is presumed as well.

Changes in dimensions like that would make the Qing have far larger displacement hence my 6000 figure. perhaps I should have said 5500 to 6500 tons submerged instead.

Qing should have similar pattern to Yuan besides the tower which is at least twice as large



Here is a 7000 ton 110 meter by 10 meter Los Angelos class for comparison as well.

this is your calculation?

If it is 6500 tons that is...

There's still some confusion over the actual role of the "Qing". Some people think it's a one off "test sub" to supplement the PLAN's current single Golf or maybe it's a cruise missile carrier or even AShBM carrier...

There is no reason to build something that's a generation ahead of Yuan in terms of stealth to supplement golf class. I read the same topics and get speechless.

I measured the new sub from the beginning of the tail to the front and got 84.5 meters

I did the same with the Yuan in the middle and got 66.5 meters

I measured the Yuan on the right from tail to front and got 75 meters.

Going by that proportion the new sub would be 95 meters long.

pretty arbitrary, don't you think?

[adeptitus]

China just started mass-producing the new, improved (sounds like a detergent commercial) Yuans with a slightly larger size and more hydrodynamic fin (conning tower).

Speaking of commercials, did anyone notice the big ad decals on the side of the 039B?

The CSIC decal in the middle is easy to read, but I'm curious if anyone knows what the 2 others to the right/left of it is.