PLAN submarines Thread II

The problem is that recent Google Earth imagery shows that 2 of the 3-4 094 boats that are in existence have not moved for 3 years suggesting that they are not operational.

If you have the google earth imagery showing the 093 class then please repost it as I have been unable to find it. Certainly all the open sources I am aware of report only 2 093 class boats as having been completed.

If the names or coordinates of the bases are available that would be great as well?

Originally Posted by sealordlawrence

The problem is that recent Google Earth imagery shows that 2 of the 3-4 094 boats that are in existence have not moved for 3 years suggesting that they are not operational.

If you have the google earth imagery showing the 093 class then please repost it as I have been unable to find it. Certainly all the open sources I am aware of report only 2 093 class boats as having been completed.

If the names or coordinates of the bases are available that would be great as well?

I'm pretty sure it's earlier in this thread actually. Crobato posted it a while back with those photos. And it's been a problem that I have not really kept up to date with those pictures. Hopefully, the new China's Map World will have better images. Anyway, here is what Crobato posted a while ago,

these posts are showing 093s at Sanya
PLAN submarines Thread II
PLAN submarines Thread II
these are the ones showing in NSF at Jianggezhuang
PLAN submarines Thread II
this is a 093 at Xiaopingdao
Chinese submarines thread
but the 093s and 094s in NSF move around between huludao, xiaopingdao and jianggezhuang.

Need to look up that map world utility to see better photos.

Edit: let me update, map world is a piece of junk, not ready for use!
Using google earth's photo of Xiaopingdao from May 12th, there appears to be one sub that is 98 m and another sub that is 78 m (at least the portion that's above water). The first one could be a 093 still. Check 121 29'39'' E and 38 49'03''N
outside of that, you can get the coordinates of huludao and jianggezhuang from SOC's blog and find them on Google Earth.

what we have here?

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Originally Posted by A.Man

what we have here?

That is of course a photo (in fact two photos stitched together) of the Yulin nuclear submarine base. It was published on CDF in June of this year. Besides the two SHANG the single JIN can be distinguished behind the SHANG to the right.

I think we need ti be careful about reading too much into the Google Earth imagery. For instance Jianggezhuang is clearly the historical main PLAN SSN facility, as can be seen by the presence of a dry dock that appears to have been sized to take nuclear submarines. Now clearly there are 5 SSN's there, however, the first problem we have is that we may well be seeing the entire HAN class, this site is obviously more than just a base but also an upgrade and maintenance facility and it may well have a training function. We could well be looking at decommissioned Han class boats being used as instructional Hulls or simply awaiting disposal.

The other issue is that the imagery is taken at different times so it is entirely plausible that we are viewing the same submarines twice just at different bases.

In total, it appears that Google Earth shows 8 SSN's, taking into account the 5 Han class boats and the prospect of seeing the same submarine twice it is entirely plausible that the open source reports of just 2 Shang class boats are entirely accurate.

Originally Posted by sealordlawrence

The problem is that recent Google Earth imagery shows that 2 of the 3-4 094 boats that are in existence have not moved for 3 years suggesting that they are not operational.

If you have the google earth imagery showing the 093 class then please repost it as I have been unable to find it. Certainly all the open sources I am aware of report only 2 093 class boats as having been completed.

If the names or coordinates of the bases are available that would be great as well?

The co-ordinates for the various SSN facilites are:

Huludao (Yard No. 431) 40 42 55 02 N 120 59 41 60 E
Shazikou (Jianggezhuang) 36 06 40 50 N 120 35 11 12 E
Xiaopingdao 38 49 07 57 N 121 29 39 82 E
Yulin (Sanya) 18 13 03 60 N 109 40 42 90 E

I think that it is generally accepted that HAN 401 has been decommissioned, while the remaining four have been upgraded to Type 091G standard. Accepting your number of 8 SSN ‘s, that still allows for 4 SHANG class.

Originally Posted by tphuang

Not necessarily, a while ago, we talked about how they have a lot more 093s and 094s than people (including DoD) admitted to. We saw evidences as early as 2008 on GE for 5 093s and 3 094s at different part of the country. It seemed like they had 3 bases with each base having at least 2 093s and 1 094. I also believe they have one or more 091 in Sanya.

Xiaopingdao is not an operational base, it appears to be more of a test and experimental facility. Besides the occasional SSN/SSBN, GOLF 200 and ROMEO (033G) 351 appear to be based there (the home of the defunct 62nd Submarine Flotilla?).

There is good evidence that HAN 404 and 405 have been transferred to Yulin. I think that 1st Submarine Base a Shazikou and 2nd Submarine Base at Yulin have exactly the samme composition, each having 1 JIN, 2 SHANG and 2 HAN.

This photo at least leaves litte doubt as to the whereabouts of the HAN class SSN.

Originally Posted by franco-russe

I think that it is generally accepted that HAN 401 has been decommissioned, while the remaining four have been upgraded to Type 091G standard. Accepting your number of 8 SSN ‘s, that still allows for 4 SHANG class.

No it does not, as I explained in my previous post, as Google Earth Imagery is not all captured on the same day, thus it is entirely plausible that we are seeing the same submarine in 2 different places. Secondly, just because the first Han class boat has been decommissioned it does not mean that it will not still be afloat somewhere, indeed what we know about the radiation shielding on those boats it is highly likely that Hull is simply tied up somewhere whilst the PLAN works out how to dispose of it without giving anyone cancer. Alternatively it could be being used as an instructional hull to support crew training. Thus we can not rule out that we are seeing all 5 Han class boats and we have no way of knowing whether we are seeing 8 different SSN's or not.

We also need to be careful about assuming that one photo determines the basing of a particular vessel, submarines, especially nuclear ones, are highly mobile.

Originally Posted by franco-russe

Xiaopingdao is not an operational base, it appears to be more of a test and experimental facility. Besides the occasional SSN/SSBN, GOLF 200 and ROMEO (033G) 351 appear to be based there (the home of the defunct 62nd Submarine Flotilla?).

I would be inclined to agree with this, in fact the Xiaopingdao facility in general is quite strange, a huge amount of effort has been expended there creating a harbour with a range jetties and pier side facilities yet somehow it looks unfinished, as if much more was planned but was then abandoned. In particular there is a curious piece of land north of the facility at 38 49 25 N 121 29 15 E that looks like it was being developed as a new pier-side facility like the one to the south at 38 49 03 N 121 29 40 E but that it was never completed. In many respects it also reminds me of Sanya, especially the location in the way that it occupies the easter side of a bay with a peninsular creating its eastern wall.

For the amount of activity that appears to happen there it seem odd that they went to so much effort to construct the harbour. I wonder whether this was planned as a major new naval base, perhaps in the late 80s/early 90s but that it became redundant as a result of the end of the Cold War???

BTW: Does anybody know where the Shang class is being built?

Of course: the Bohai Shipyard in Huludao, China's only nuclear submarine shipyard. If you look at it in GE, you will find that this rather modest yard has two JIN class lying at the fitting out pier.

Originally Posted by franco-russe

Of course: the Bohai Shipyard in Huludao, China's only nuclear submarine shipyard. If you look at it in GE, you will find that this rather modest yard has two JIN class lying at the fitting out pier.

Of course, and those Jin class boats have now been there for 3 years now!

Perhaps. I think I saw a photo in February of this year, showing one JIN and one SHANG in Huludao.

Originally Posted by franco-russe

Perhaps. I think I saw a photo in February of this year, showing one JIN and one SHANG in Huludao.

Well the latest GE imagery is dated March 2 2010 and there are definitely 2 Jin class boats there in the same positions they have been for the last 3 years.