This is a discussion on PLAN submarines Thread II within the Navy forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Orthan Heh. This is big if this submarine is based on the lada class. The lada is ...
Member
Below is excerpts from the main story which can be found by clicking the link.I guess it is inevitable that we will have to keep discussing the old chestnut of China copying.The following story can be expected whenever the Russians or others are not happy.We will just need to live with it.Maybe they should come with a health warning.Originally Posted by Orthan
China to conquer world arms market with poor quality rip-offs - English pravda.ru
US experts believe that China has copied Russian weapons again. This time it goes about submarines. US analysts say that the new Yuan class (type 41 A, B, C) diesel-electric submarines are rips-off of Russian Kilo and Lada projects.
China has built three submarines that bear a striking resemblance to Russian Kilo and Lada subs. It is not really clear how Chinese engineers have managed to rip off the Lada sub, because Russia has not exported any of them yet.
Have Chinese engineers observed quality? Most likely, they have not. Foreign military experts said that the new Chinese Yuan is larger than Kilo and Lada, but have common design features. A larger size implies larger tonnage, which in its turn negatively changes military qualities.
China previously had the licensed production of Soviet Romeo submarines, which were dubbed in China as "Type 39." Chinese engineers acknowledged that their developments were based on Russian state-of-the-art defense technologies. However, they vehemently denied the fact of blunt copying claiming that that they had considerably improved them.
It may seem strange that Russia has not set forth any claims to China yet.
The fact that China has become very quick in copying Russian arms and launching them in serial production shows that the nation has reached the modern industrial level. The problem is about the quality. Chinese weapons have been reputed in the world as cheap and disposable. However, the Asian giant may eventually solve this problem too some day. In this case, China will easily conquer world markets of arms.
Banned Idiot
A larger size/tonnage with subs automatically mean worse military qualities ?
Sounds like the author's subs knowledge is limited to the typical fanboy'ish 'small = quite'.
Anyway, it's always fun to see western commentators throw hissy fits when they see news of China's progress. Expect more to come.
Super Moderator
The Chosun Ilbo (English Edition): Daily News from Korea - Has China Built a New Stealth Submarine?
a story on this. I guess since csic has admitted this new submarine, the forumer are not finally free to post all the pictures they want. Although, I have not actually seen where CSIC admitted to it. Anyhow, looks like the Koreans finally caught on to this story.China's neighbors are worried that the People's Republic may already have produced a stealth submarine, the South China Morning Post in Hong Kong reported Sunday.
Three weeks ago, photos of a new submarine built at a Chinese naval shipyard in Wuhan failed to draw much attention when they were posted on several websites. But that changed last week when the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation disclosed that the Wuhan shipyard had built a new submarine, as well as more details of the craft.
China has not yet officially announced that this is a stealth sub, but neighboring countries have become nervous as military experts say that is what it is, the paper claimed.
"The talk in our community is that we are seeing the first signs of a completed new design," the daily quoted one Asian military expert as saying. "The question is ... just how quiet have they been able to make it? Stealth is everything when it comes to submarines and at some point China is going to finally crack it."
It also quoted the People's Liberation Army Daily as saying Da Liang Long, a professor at the PLA Navy's Submarine Academy, won an award from the Central Military Commission for his "considerable" work on submarine stealth technology.
"Naval officials in the region say encounters between submarines are increasing. Such encounters will become more frequent as countries such as Japan, Korea, Australia, Vietnam and Indonesia expand and update their submarine fleets in the face of China's rising military strength. The PLA will soon have more submarines than the United States Navy," the daily added.
btw, this article is really rubbish. this sentence alone tells you all need to know about how bright the author is "A larger size implies larger tonnage, which in its turn negatively changes military qualities."Below is excerpts from the main story which can be found by clicking the link.I guess it is inevitable that we will have to keep discussing the old chestnut of China copying.The following story can be expected whenever the Russians or others are not happy.We will just need to live with it.Maybe they should come with a health warning.
China to conquer world arms market with poor quality rip-offs - English pravda.ru
US experts believe that China has copied Russian weapons again. This time it goes about submarines. US analysts say that the new Yuan class (type 41 A, B, C) diesel-electric submarines are rips-off of Russian Kilo and Lada projects.
China has built three submarines that bear a striking resemblance to Russian Kilo and Lada subs. It is not really clear how Chinese engineers have managed to rip off the Lada sub, because Russia has not exported any of them yet.
Have Chinese engineers observed quality? Most likely, they have not. Foreign military experts said that the new Chinese Yuan is larger than Kilo and Lada, but have common design features. A larger size implies larger tonnage, which in its turn negatively changes military qualities.
China previously had the licensed production of Soviet Romeo submarines, which were dubbed in China as "Type 39." Chinese engineers acknowledged that their developments were based on Russian state-of-the-art defense technologies. However, they vehemently denied the fact of blunt copying claiming that that they had considerably improved them.
It may seem strange that Russia has not set forth any claims to China yet.
The fact that China has become very quick in copying Russian arms and launching them in serial production shows that the nation has reached the modern industrial level. The problem is about the quality. Chinese weapons have been reputed in the world as cheap and disposable. However, the Asian giant may eventually solve this problem too some day. In this case, China will easily conquer world markets of arms.
To continue on the first article, this was the original SCMP article
http://viet-studies.info/kinhte/Chin...submarines.htm
interesting how it made no mention of CSIC revealing this submarine (which I didn't think it would), but just what we already know (which was that much clearer photos showed up recently to proof that this is in fact real).South China Morning Post
October 3, 2010 Sunday
Neighbours fear China has produced stealth submarine
Greg Torode ords
Has China finally produced a stealth submarine? The latest product of a PLA naval shipyard in Wuhan has the country's neighbours wondering.
Sketchy photos of a new conventionally powered submarine - the third generation produced since 1994 - appeared on private Chinese websites three weeks ago and raised few eyebrows initially.
But far more detailed images surfaced a week later showing a new submarine being launched by the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation.
Nothing has been said officially, but other countries are taking seriously the prospect of a new class of Chinese submarines.
"The talk in our community is that we are seeing the first signs of a completed new design," said one Asian-based military attaché.
"The question is ? just how quiet have they been able to make it? Stealth is everything when it comes to submarines and at some point China is going to finally crack it."
No weapon better reflects mounting regional tensions than the submarine - used to provide an unseen armed deterrent against larger potential foes as well to penetrate coastlines for surveillance and espionage activities.
Naval officials in the region say encounters between submarines are increasing.
Such encounters will become more frequent as countries such as Japan, South Korea, Australia, Vietnam and Indonesia expand and update their submarine fleets in the face of China's rising military strength.
The PLA will soon have more submarines than the United States Navy, but its fleet is thought to be far less advanced than - and have stealth technology still far behind - not only the American, but also the Russian and Japanese fleets.
The submarine launched in Wuhan may provide crucial clues as to just how long it will take China to catch up. Some reports suggest the submarine incorporates both indigenous Chinese and Russian technology - China operates around a dozen Russian Kilo-class submarines.
Interest is focusing on whether the People's Liberation Army has been able to improve on the propulsion system of the Yuan-class submarine launched in 2007. Its air-independent diesel-electric engines allow submarines to remain submerged for long periods without surfacing for air, and running mostly on quiet batteries.
Reports in the respected weekly Jane's Defence noted the submarine's large superstructure, known as the sail, and speculation that it might be used to house anti-ship cruise missiles and anti-anti-aircraft missiles. These so-called area-denial weapons are a cause of increasing alarm for US naval commanders.
Meanwhile, the PLA Daily and a Qingdao newspaper report that Da Liang Long, a professor at the PLA Navy's Submarine Academy, received an award from the Central Military Commission for his "considerable" work on submarine stealth technology.
Gary Li, a PLA analyst at the London-based International Institute of Strategic Studies, said such an award was unusual in the mainland system. "It could be a sign that the professor has really achieved a breakthrough ? and they are usually given when a certain project has been completed, so everything fits with the launch in Wuhan.
"Undoubtedly there will be a lot of sea trials and tweaking needed before the PLA can really be sure of this submarine's capability."
The US Defence Department's annual report on China's military modernisation, released in August, made no mention of the impending launch of a new conventional PLA submarine. Rather, the report focused on possible advances in China's nuclear-powered attack submarines - vessels similar to those that form the backbone of the US fleet and which are increasingly being seen in the western Pacific Ocean.
The report predicted four new-generation attack submarines would be launched in "coming years".
Last edited by tphuang; 10-04-2010 at 10:38 PM.
New Member
Pravda.... of course it is crap.
But I would not expect a major public overreaction by Russia towards China to be found in the media.
There is evidence that Russia has had some serious security problems regarding modern submarine designs over the last many months - and the best example of that evidence is the narcotic submarine uncovered in Ecuador in July.
If the drug cartels can get a hold of modern Russian sub designs, it is a safe bet the Chinese can too.
Member
Yeah this is really ignorant. When it comes to submarines, bigger is better because there is more structure to absorb sound, a longer distance to run a sonar along the sides which increase its ability to distinguish small sounds, longer range, and more weapons payload. The only downsides are the higher costs of designing, building, and operating a larger sub.A larger size implies larger tonnage, which in its turn negatively changes military qualities.
Super Moderator
more from WuChang shipyard. I really like the up close photo of the bow. You can clearly see the typical torpedo tubes of Yuan on the latter sub. And you can also see 2 torpedo tubes above water on the new sub. We can speculate why that is the case and what it means for this new arrangement.
Member
I was really hoping to be able to make out the tail fin of the new Yuan and compare it to that of the new 'Chinese Kilo' alongside it.
That would give us an idea of how the 2 subs compare in length.
I've tried but just can't make it out. Is it hidden behind the new sub's long conning tower - which is about 3 and a half times longer than the new streamlined fin on the classic Yuan.
I'm pretty sure that the new sub is much larger than the 'classic' Yuan beside it.
This is especially clear in the 2nd picture taken from the bows.
Even given the tricks of perspective, the new sub looks to be around twice the displacement of the older Yuan.
Ocean-going SSK for sure.
Member
I must confess that I am starting to agree that this vessel may be considerably larger than the Yuan class. Especially after looking at the side shot, the conning tower looks much more in proportion to the hull length. Not to mention the relative size of the deck level hatch in the side of the conning tower.
Member
Jane's is reporting that the sail on the new Yuan boat, behind the new SSK type, is heavily modified compared to previous boats, it apparently features additional curves, can anyone confirm this?
Senior Member
One way of estimating its size is by looking at whatever that's closest to the submarine whether it be painted logos, decorative flags etc. Chances are they could opt for different sized logos or flags but at least that's a good place to start.
Edit: Looking at the torpedo tube openings in the above pictures, the new sub does look to be bigger i.e. circumference of the bow roughly 1.5X bigger. That's assuming same torpedo size.
Last edited by Quickie; 10-08-2010 at 04:21 AM.
Member
A couple of points,
1) Galrahn, it is not uncommon for the Chinese to recycle numerical designations for new ship classes despite the fact they have little if any relation to each other, compare the 052 with the 052C for instance, or 051 with 051C.
2) Having made a quick check of available photos Jane's is right, the sail on the new Yuan is modified, most notably at the top towards the front where there is significant shaping compared to the straight cut on previous boats.
I think 039B is a perfectly acceptable designation for the new boat and 041A (or G) might be well suited to the new Yuan. Either way these are two very interesting developments that yet again underscore the investment China is making in its fleet.
Super Moderator
I haven't read that Jane article, but I've been saying that since it first appeared. We need updated photo of the rest of it's hull, but the sail clearly features more stealthy curves. The old sail pretty much just has a bunch of 90 degree angles. It seems to be adopting some of that from the new SSK. Now, I think that makes it slightly changed from the last batch of Yuans. So, they may just be falling Song's path where the 2nd batch of 3 is different from the prototype. After that, the final mass production variant is different from the 2nd batch.
Member
Except there are supposedly 4 or 5 of the "Batch 1" Yuans with this being the first in the new configuration. I would suggest that this Yuan is simply a series improvement on the earlier vessels, the design may have even been altered during construction if the changes are limited to the sail. Further construction may well be dependent on the success of the 039B class.
Member
Excuse me for asking this, but I know little about submarine design. How does "stealthy curves" make a submarine less detectable? I thought the main goal of submarine design was to make it quieter.
New Member
If the design make the sub more hydrodynamically efficient, then the sub will be more quiet than a less efficient submarine cruising at the same speed.
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