PLAN submarines Thread II

[Roger604]

Those giant concrete shelters the Germans built wouldn't stop a modern penetrating warhead, and modern guidance systems means bombs could be guided through ventilation shafts or right into the mouth of the cave. A modern GBU can guided through a one meter square opening.

I don't disagree with your general premise. But your figures here are incorrect or misleading. GBU-28 has a CEP of 30 feet, not even close to the 1 meter "can be guided" you suggest.

Besides, it needs laser illumination from somebody on the ground.

[Pointblank]

I don't disagree with your general premise. But your figures here are incorrect or misleading. GBU-28 has a CEP of 30 feet, not even close to the 1 meter "can be guided" you suggest.

The EGBU-28 is more accurate as it uses GPS guidance, not laser designation.

Besides, it needs laser illumination from somebody on the ground.

Nope, it can be designated using the Sniper XR targeting pod, or the LITENING targeting pod.

[Mashan]

Is this a PLAN submarine thread ? Sub don't work in caves, it best served under water.

[Infra_Man99]

Is this a PLAN submarine thread ? Sub don't work in caves, it best served under water.

I think everybody agrees with your statement. The question is what to do with submarines in docks. Do you leave them in the open air or do you hide them in caves? I think hiding is better than nothing, so hide them in caves. If I was in the infantry in war, and was taking a break in the field, reconnoitering at a spot, or holding a position, I would rather hide in tall grass or be in a bunker than stand in an open field. The tall grass or bunker doesn't guarantee stealth or isn't invulnerable, but it's better than standing in an open field. During peacetime, I would care less about hiding. Maybe this concept applies to equipment, vehicles, airplanes, and ships?

[Finn McCool]

Check your history, the Taliban didn't last three weeks at Tora Bora when the US Army went in to clear those caves out. The Soviets certainly struggled for years trying to root the Afghans out of those caves, but the US Army made quick work of it. They would have had Osama been Forgotten right there had one of the War Lords we counted on ( paid ) to help us had not been bought off ( paid even more money ) by OBL to look the other way as he and his top people fled into Pakistan.

Well obviously they were cleared out fairly quickly, because we had forces on the ground working in conjunction with the air strikes. I suppose what I should have said is that the caves allowed some Taliban to survive some withering bombardments, even if they were eventually killed, showing that being inside of a mountain still offers some pretty serious protection. Furthermore the SSBN cave would only have to work once to protect the subs from a surprise/preemptive attack. Once the war is on they'll be out at sea anyway. Ultimately this whole debate is pretty pointless as we don't even know if these structures exist for sure.

On the subject of the Tora Bora fiasco, whoever decided that some raggedy Northern Alliance tribesmen were a cheaper way to do the job of setting up a decent blocking position and cutting of ol' Osama's escape route than the Rangers was very very dumb. That was arguably our last best chance to get him as far is publically known for sure.

[A.Man]

China Is Worried About 200 Submarines Around Its Coast.

¶à¹úDZͧÃܲ¼ÖйúÖܱߺ£Óò ·ÀÎñй۲ì CCTV.com

[tphuang]

China Is Worried About 200 Submarines Around Its Coast.

¶à¹úDZͧÃܲ¼ÖйúÖܱߺ£Óò ·ÀÎñй۲ì CCTV.com

in the future, can you provide some real summary rather than just posting these videos? A lot of people here don't understand mandarin.

[jackbh]

in the future, can you provide some real summary rather than just posting these videos? A lot of people here don't understand mandarin.

Thank you for posting this video, I find it very informative. I think there are still many people here who can understand Chinese.

[Ambivalent]

I don't disagree with your general premise. But your figures here are incorrect or misleading. GBU-28 has a CEP of 30 feet, not even close to the 1 meter "can be guided" you suggest.

Besides, it needs laser illumination from somebody on the ground.

GBU II's can now hit moving targets as small as a pick up truck. This has been demonstrated in testing. In Serbia cruise missiles were accurately guided through the windows of buildings. Now the aim points can be adjusted in flight by on board video and data links to the launch platform. The cruise missile will give you a live video feed right to impact for what we euphemistically call "real time battle damage assessment". If your primary target has been hit by an earlier cruise missile a second cruise missile may be reprogrammed in flight for a new target. Check out how SLAMER works for an example, but even Norway's new cruise missile has these features. You have seen the video's even from GWI of LGB's entering the ventilation shafts of Iraqi bunkers. This is not science fiction. Fixed shelters don't buy much protection any more and modern penetrator warheads can pass through meters of concrete. Sophisticated fusing will even allow specific floors of a building to be destroyed as a bomb passes through from the top.

[Ambivalent]

I don't disagree with your general premise. But your figures here are incorrect or misleading. GBU-28 has a CEP of 30 feet, not even close to the 1 meter "can be guided" you suggest.

Besides, it needs laser illumination from somebody on the ground.

Well, that's the open source figure, the actual capability is different.

[Pointblank]

GBU II's can now hit moving targets as small as a pick up truck. This has been demonstrated in testing. In Serbia cruise missiles were accurately guided through the windows of buildings. Now the aim points can be adjusted in flight by on board video and data links to the launch platform. The cruise missile will give you a live video feed right to impact for what we euphemistically call "real time battle damage assessment". If your primary target has been hit by an earlier cruise missile a second cruise missile may be reprogrammed in flight for a new target. Check out how SLAMER works for an example, but even Norway's new cruise missile has these features. You have seen the video's even from GWI of LGB's entering the ventilation shafts of Iraqi bunkers. This is not science fiction. Fixed shelters don't buy much protection any more and modern penetrator warheads can pass through meters of concrete. Sophisticated fusing will even allow specific floors of a building to be destroyed as a bomb passes through from the top.

And if push comes to shove, we got the GBU-57A/B, also known as the Massive Ordnance Penetrator. GPS guided, it is deployed from either the B-1 or B-2 bomber, and will easily punch through 60m of 5,000 psi reinforced concrete.

And I especially don't like the idea of placing my SLBM assets in a cave; if I was a smart enemy, I would target the entrances to the cave with my weapons, and trap anyone and anything inside the cave.

[lilzz]

Putting big noise maker inside chinese sub during peacetime.
During war time, take them out.

Just as USN figured it has collected all noise signature of chinese sub during peacetime, but my friend, those are false reading.

[Damingli85]

Or we could be like America and send them out to hide under the sea.

[Pointblank]

Putting big noise maker inside chinese sub during peacetime.
During war time, take them out.

Just as USN figured it has collected all noise signature of chinese sub during peacetime, but my friend, those are false reading.

A good sonar operator and a good set of equipment and sound processors can filter noise makers out very quickly; remember, the sets used on our sonars are very similar to those being used for oceanographic research; they have to filter out background and other unrelated noises and detect very faint sources of sound being masked by ocean conditions.

And in the great game of nuclear chicken, being forewarned about a war is a luxury. Those subs would be dead after their shadows fire their torpedoes at a easy to find target before they would have a chance to return to port. And to remove something large from a submarine would require a few weeks worth of dry dock. Not worth it.

[lilzz]

A good sonar operator and a good set of equipment and sound processors can filter noise makers out very quickly; remember, the sets used on our sonars are very similar to those being used for oceanographic research; they have to filter out background and other unrelated noises and detect very faint sources of sound being masked by ocean conditions.

And in the great game of nuclear chicken, being forewarned about a war is a luxury. Those subs would be dead after their shadows fire their torpedoes at a easy to find target before they would have a chance to return to port. And to remove something large from a submarine would require a few weeks worth of dry dock. Not worth it.

Not so easy. How you know that noise is not from the engine. Maybe that noise is part of system shouldn't be filter out. That's tough call to differentiate what noise is non-related and what noise is intrinsic. You don't have exact system so how do you do know what to expect beforehand?