PLAN submarines Thread II

[HKSDU]

Shouldn't these guys be in the cave? Isn't it part of security to have your ballistic subs in the cave enclosure than to leave them out in the open like that?

kinda of freaky when you think that any guy using air tanks can swim under water from that beach area to the sub and plant an explosive.

well china right now isn't in red alert status, so they've got no need to keep such high security as if they were under threat.

[Finn McCool]

Shouldn't these guys be in the cave? Isn't it part of security to have your ballistic subs in the cave enclosure than to leave them out in the open like that?

kinda of freaky when you think that any guy using air tanks can swim under water from that beach area to the sub and plant an explosive.

I assure you, that bay has multiple layers of defense to prevent divers from entering.

[Ambivalent]

Shouldn't these guys be in the cave? Isn't it part of security to have your ballistic subs in the cave enclosure than to leave them out in the open like that?

kinda of freaky when you think that any guy using air tanks can swim under water from that beach area to the sub and plant an explosive.

Nope. A cave is useless against modern weapons, they would become the submarine's tomb. The only real protection for a submarine is deep water. IT is routine for submarine pens to have marine mammals and divers in the waters for protection against divers, but there is no way to hide subs from damage from ballistic missiles or certain heavy aircraft ordinance.

[Maggern]

Nope. A cave is useless against modern weapons, they would become the submarine's tomb. The only real protection for a submarine is deep water. IT is routine for submarine pens to have marine mammals and divers in the waters for protection against divers, but there is no way to hide subs from damage from ballistic missiles or certain heavy aircraft ordinance.

I think he was referring to the danger of letting the submarines out to public scrutiny...allowing pictures like that to be taken. But of course, once war starts, those caves are useless, as a well-informed enemy (like the US or any other major power in the area) is sure to know where most of those caves are and could easily blast them to smithereens in the early hours of hostilities..

[Mashan]

I think he was referring to the danger of letting the submarines out to public scrutiny...allowing pictures like that to be taken. But of course, once war starts, those caves are useless, as a well-informed enemy (like the US or any other major power in the area) is sure to know where most of those caves are and could easily blast them to smithereens in the early hours of hostilities..

Before the war starts, sub from both sides would be out in force hiding in the deep ocean waiting for the time to launch. So the caves are used for performing maintenance out of the eyes of the public and from above.

[Finn McCool]

Nope. A cave is useless against modern weapons, they would become the submarine's tomb. The only real protection for a submarine is deep water. IT is routine for submarine pens to have marine mammals and divers in the waters for protection against divers, but there is no way to hide subs from damage from ballistic missiles or certain heavy aircraft ordinance.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount it; caves have served the Taliban well enough at Tora Bora and elsewhere. Are you familiar with the giant concrete shelters for Uboats built in WWII? Those things were basically the closest thing to a man made cave you could have, and they protected Uboats quite well against direct hits from very large bombs. As long as the PLAN can keep its adversaries guessing about which caves they're using, I think they're worthwhile.

That being said, the best protection is out at sea.

[Mashan]

I wouldn't be so quick to discount it; caves have served the Taliban well enough at Tora Bora and elsewhere. Are you familiar with the giant concrete shelters for Uboats built in WWII? Those things were basically the closest thing to a man made cave you could have, and they protected Uboats quite well against direct hits from very large bombs. As long as the PLAN can keep its adversaries guessing about which caves they're using, I think they're worthwhile.

That being said, the best protection is out at sea.

Absolutely agree on the best protection is out at sea and running deep. But on the bomb issue, some of the bomb countries use these days are really sick and can penetrate well protected deep locations

[Skywatcher]

On the other hand, is it possible for a CIWS system or some other AA system to knock out a 15 ton bunker buster?

[Pointblank]

On the other hand, is it possible for a CIWS system or some other AA system to knock out a 15 ton bunker buster?

Not highly likely, and even then, that's 15 tons of ordinance coming right at you. Expect collateral damage.

[Ambivalent]

I wouldn't be so quick to discount it; caves have served the Taliban well enough at Tora Bora and elsewhere. Are you familiar with the giant concrete shelters for Uboats built in WWII? Those things were basically the closest thing to a man made cave you could have, and they protected Uboats quite well against direct hits from very large bombs. As long as the PLAN can keep its adversaries guessing about which caves they're using, I think they're worthwhile.

That being said, the best protection is out at sea.

Check your history, the Taliban didn't last three weeks at Tora Bora when the US Army went in to clear those caves out. The Soviets certainly struggled for years trying to root the Afghans out of those caves, but the US Army made quick work of it. They would have had Osama been Forgotten right there had one of the War Lords we counted on ( paid ) to help us had not been bought off ( paid even more money ) by OBL to look the other way as he and his top people fled into Pakistan.
Those giant concrete shelters the Germans built wouldn't stop a modern penetrating warhead, and modern guidance systems means bombs could be guided through ventilation shafts or right into the mouth of the cave. A modern GBU can guided through a one meter square opening.
In the cold war, both sides used to play games with each other using dummy subs to fool the other side about the number of boats each side had. For that to work, the satellite has to see them. With SOSUS and SSN's lurking outside Soviet bases, there was seldom any question regarding how many boats the Soviets actually had at sea. Really, in modern warfare, hardened shelters protects little, only maneuver and stealth offer protection.

[pla101prc]

Check your history, the Taliban didn't last three weeks at Tora Bora when the US Army went in to clear those caves out. The Soviets certainly struggled for years trying to root the Afghans out of those caves, but the US Army made quick work of it. They would have had Osama been Forgotten right there had one of the War Lords we counted on ( paid ) to help us had not been bought off ( paid even more money ) by OBL to look the other way as he and his top people fled into Pakistan.
Those giant concrete shelters the Germans built wouldn't stop a modern penetrating warhead, and modern guidance systems means bombs could be guided through ventilation shafts or right into the mouth of the cave. A modern GBU can guided through a one meter square opening.
In the cold war, both sides used to play games with each other using dummy subs to fool the other side about the number of boats each side had. For that to work, the satellite has to see them. With SOSUS and SSN's lurking outside Soviet bases, there was seldom any question regarding how many boats the Soviets actually had at sea. Really, in modern warfare, hardened shelters protects little, only maneuver and stealth offer protection.

last time i checked the caves in Vietnam were a lot of trouble for the American forces. and there isnt much we can say about afghanistan cuz we dont know everything that's happening. while modern sub bases are not immune to attacks they certainly make it a lot more difficult

[King_Comm]

Question: What's preventing China from using deep sea submersibles to sabotage the SOSUS around China?

[Maggern]

Check your history, the Taliban didn't last three weeks at Tora Bora when the US Army went in to clear those caves out. The Soviets certainly struggled for years trying to root the Afghans out of those caves, but the US Army made quick work of it. They would have had Osama been Forgotten right there had one of the War Lords we counted on ( paid ) to help us had not been bought off ( paid even more money ) by OBL to look the other way as he and his top people fled into Pakistan.
Those giant concrete shelters the Germans built wouldn't stop a modern penetrating warhead, and modern guidance systems means bombs could be guided through ventilation shafts or right into the mouth of the cave. A modern GBU can guided through a one meter square opening.
In the cold war, both sides used to play games with each other using dummy subs to fool the other side about the number of boats each side had. For that to work, the satellite has to see them. With SOSUS and SSN's lurking outside Soviet bases, there was seldom any question regarding how many boats the Soviets actually had at sea. Really, in modern warfare, hardened shelters protects little, only maneuver and stealth offer protection.

Oh yes, the US Army pretty much wiped out all opposition pretty quickly. Nothing remains of the Taliban today.

Caves are and will continue to be hell for any aggressor. If one can conceal the entrance, a cave gives you the cover of bedrock, that in many cases few, if any, modern weapons can penetrate (not counting nukes). They can also allow you to move from one place to another underground and come up where the enemy least expects you, out of sight from ground units, aircraft and satellites. Of course, as soon as the caves are found, they're virtually worthless, as it is easy to clear one out, but it still lags the aggressor force in a situation where time and mobility is of the essence.

[Pointblank]

last time i checked the caves in Vietnam were a lot of trouble for the American forces. and there isnt much we can say about afghanistan cuz we dont know everything that's happening. while modern sub bases are not immune to attacks they certainly make it a lot more difficult

Technology and tactics have come a long way over the past couple of decades. Now, nothing that a good old GBU-28 can't penetrate, especially during the first Iraq War, where the weapon was hastily developed for use with the F-111F to destroy hardened Iraqi underground command centres.

So unless the Chinese managed to build a bunker very deep underground with tons of reinforced concrete, there is no way to protect against such munitions for the meantime, as the American's will eventually develop another weapon to do just that very quickly.

[Infra_Man99]

Check your history, the Taliban didn't last three weeks at Tora Bora when the US Army went in to clear those caves out. The Soviets certainly struggled for years trying to root the Afghans out of those caves, but the US Army made quick work of it. They would have had Osama been Forgotten right there had one of the War Lords we counted on ( paid ) to help us had not been bought off ( paid even more money ) by OBL to look the other way as he and his top people fled into Pakistan.
Those giant concrete shelters the Germans built wouldn't stop a modern penetrating warhead, and modern guidance systems means bombs could be guided through ventilation shafts or right into the mouth of the cave. A modern GBU can guided through a one meter square opening.
In the cold war, both sides used to play games with each other using dummy subs to fool the other side about the number of boats each side had. For that to work, the satellite has to see them. With SOSUS and SSN's lurking outside Soviet bases, there was seldom any question regarding how many boats the Soviets actually had at sea. Really, in modern warfare, hardened shelters protects little, only maneuver and stealth offer protection.

This wasn't just a matter of which nation has superior bombs. Not even close. The USSR was really fighting a war against the Afghanis supported by the US and some of its allies. There is evidence China and a few Muslim nations were secretly supporting the Afghanis, too. In the USA vs. Aghanistan war, the current war, the Afghanis are receiving far less international support than their earlier war against the USSR. The USSR and US have been struggling, wasting enormous resources, and bringing unnecessary suffering and death trying to control and develop Afghanistan in the ways they see fit. If not for 9/11 or anything similar, the Bush Administration would have just stumbled into Afghanistan with no just reason according to some reports. Then the US would possibly be fighting against an Afghanistan strongly backed my multiple nations. If this was the case, Afghanistan would probably have been a true desert Vietnam. In my opinion, the US would have performed a lot, lot, lot better if it had led with diplomacy, but this solution is almost gone due to the phenomenal failures by chicken hawks.

In regard to engineering a bomb so it can destroy hardened or heavily defended underground facilities, I'll leave that up to people with realistic information in these matters.