PLAN submarines Thread II

[crobato]

Yes this one.

I'm not sure if this picture is actually related to the first two at all, due to the differences of grain in the pictures, or for that matter if the first two is related.

On another note, I just had a thought that the Yuans we have been seeing stop by at the ESF headquarters located near the mouth of the Huangpu river. Many of the photos of the new Yuans show the sub rested next to the HQ. I believe this marks the transfer of the sub from the shipyard to the navy, and from then on the sub gets its operational crew.

The thing I seem to notice that not all subs or ships would be going to this route. If a sub or ship is destined to the North or South Seas Fleets, they won't stop by the ESF HQ and would go directly to their destination which is going to be either the HQ for the North or South Seas Fleet depending on their assignment. A case in point would be the Hudong built 054A pennant 568.

That means we're not going to account for subs headed to the NSF and SSF subs this way. What we have seen so far are the new Yuans going to the ESF. In order to make a full first operational flotilla, you would need about four of them, or three if the original Yuan is transferred back to the ESF.

[tphuang]

Yes this one.

I'm not sure if this picture is actually related to the first two at all, due to the differences of grain in the pictures, or for that matter if the first two is related.

On another note, I just had a thought that the Yuans we have been seeing stop by at the ESF headquarters located near the mouth of the Huangpu river. Many of the photos of the new Yuans show the sub rested next to the HQ. I believe this marks the transfer of the sub from the shipyard to the navy, and from then on the sub gets its operational crew.

The thing I seem to notice that not all subs or ships would be going to this route. If a sub or ship is destined to the North or South Seas Fleets, they won't stop by the ESF HQ and would go directly to their destination which is going to be either the HQ for the North or South Seas Fleet depending on their assignment. A case in point would be the Hudong built 054A pennant 568.

That means we're not going to account for subs headed to the NSF and SSF subs this way. What we have seen so far are the new Yuans going to the ESF. In order to make a full first operational flotilla, you would need about four of them, or three if the original Yuan is transferred back to the ESF.

I always thought there are more Yuans out there than just the 3 we saw + the additional one in Wuhan. I don't think it's possible to know unless we start seeing numbers. Like for Song, we still don't know the exact number.

[crobato]

I based my estimates on how you would plan an ORBAT. I do this with my J-10, JH-7A, and J-11 estimations. Give me a location with a sighting, and expect to have a full operational unit there.

The diesel subs and FACs tend to operate in groups of four, which makes up a flotilla. Larger ships and subs tend to be in pairs with the notable exceptions of ships and subs that are only for experimental reasons, made in ones (167 Shenzhen, Xia, original Yuan). However, for the Xia it can be counted as a pair to match the Hans being an odd number.

My initial estimate for the new Yuans is either four subs to a flotilla for the ESF, or three subs + first Yuan for the flotilla.

My current estimate for the Songs is 12 039G1, in three flotillas plus 3 039G. and 1 039 that makes up a test flotilla for the ESF. The 12 039G1 (improved G, starting from pennant 324) is divided in to three flotillas of four subs each in the ESF, SSF and NSF. However, I'm not sure if the SSF flotilla is currently 3 Songs + 1 original Yuan, and it may be four Songs with the Yuan being a test sub. If that is the latter case, then I can expect three new Yuans + original Yuan to make up a flotilla. If that is the former case, then the initial contract for 039B would be four Yuan 039B for one flotilla and the original Yuan won't be joining them.

Likewise, the 091Gs and 093s may be set in pairs. Two 091G in the SSF, two in the NSF. Same goes for the 093 but i suspect there might be four in the NSF.

[crobato]

Here is a thought challenge. What sub is this? Yes, its a Lada and it looks very much like a Yuan.

But people tend to miss the one very important part. In fact, if a Lada and a Yuan are sailing together, you can use this to recognize one from the other from an airborne or satellite view.

Chinese subs tend to be constructed in a way that their sail is much close to the forward bow. This has been true with all indigenously designed subs from the 094 to the Yuan.

The Russian subs however---both conventional and nuclear---tend to be constructed in a way that their sail is close or near dead center of the hull. The way the sail is located can lead to some strategic design decision s of placements in various things in the inner hull. If you're on top, you can see both forward and rear of the sub equally.

[crobato]

So big byte (too big to be posted in the SDF) pictures of a new Yuan posted by Xinhui in the CDF in the bottom of this thread.

http://www.china-defense.com/forum/i...25&#entry89788

The sub is in a different location from the previous Yuans would get their crew, which in the last three to four occasions have been the ESF naval base at the mouth of the Huangpu river. There are minor differences in this sub from the previous ones, such as in the number of rear limber holes (4 vs. 6 in the last new ones).

[tphuang]

I think this one is actually the original Yuan. At least the window on the sail and some of the other minor changes from Yuan 01 to 02 can be seen on this picture. Also, I think the limber hole pattern matches 01 better.

[crobato]

The fourth set of limber holes on this sub starts with a pattern like this.

IIIIIIII IIII IIII IIII

The original Yuan has the fourth set of limber holes in a pattern like this.

IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII

All you need to do is check the pictures. Its either a second 039A, a sub between the first and the third (first 039B), or the first 039A strangely enough, has different patterns of holes on each side.

I'm not sure where the location of this base is at, I suspect its the ESF. Either way, this is a Yuan that used to be in the SSF and has now gone back to the ESF, probably, in my opinion, to meet the other Yuans there to form an all Yuan flotilla.

[tphuang]

pictures of the modified 091, doesn't show much more than usual. I guess it's on a routine exercise.

[crobato]

The second picture looks like it has a helicopter hovering above it but the helo is not included with the shot.

[crobato]

094 artwork and models.

[tphuang]

One of the Yuans, it's really hard to tell which one it is just by looking at this front view. I think the size of the window seems to be closer to Yuan 02's window, but it's hard to say without a side view.

[crobato]

That picture was taken earlier this year and it appears to be the new Yuan subtype. Interesting enough the background seems to indicate the north, or with the NSF. At that time, the NSF appears to be having ASW exercises so I was thinking that the Yuan as part of its trials, may be playing as an adversary.

[crobato]

Japan concerned over Chinese submarines near maritime borders
12:12 | 17/ 10/ 2008



TOKYO, October 17 (RIA Novosti) - Chinese submarines have recently increased their activity near Japan's maritime borders in the East China Sea, a Japanese military source said on Friday.

According to the source, the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force detected the presence of a Chinese Han-class nuclear-powered submarine and a Song-class diesel attack submarine in the region as the U.S. George Washington nuclear aircraft carrier was heading to the South Korean port of Pusan on a friendly visit.

The USS George Washington is stationed at a U.S. naval base in Yokosuka, Japan.

The source said the Chinese submarines did not violate Japanese territorial waters, but described their activities as attempts "to gather data on noise signatures emitted by all automated systems of the U.S. aircraft carrier" and "some sort of intimidation."

In response to the Chinese moves, Tokyo and Washington increased the number of patrol flights by Japan's P-3C Orion ASW aircraft and deployed additional U.S. reconnaissance satellite assets to monitor the area.

The Chinese Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-powered attack submarines, and its 13 Song-class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.

In October 2006, an undetected Chinese Song-class submarine popped up in the middle of a U.S. task force during an exercise in the Pacific at the distance of only 5 miles from the USS Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier.

The Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

[montyp165]

As long as the PLAN submarine force gains more practice and experience, things will pay off in the long term...

[crobato]

This is to address the SublevelIQs at Strategypage.com

Chinese Boats Stalk George Washington
October 21, 2008: Japan has increased anti-submarine patrols in international waters, just outside Japanese territorial waters. Chinese submarines are apparently exercising there more frequently, looking for Japanese, South Korean and American warships to play tag with. The U.S. has also redirected more of its space based naval search capabilities to assist the Japanese.

Chinese Song class diesel electric and Han class nuclear powered boats were detected and tracked recently. One of each of these was spotted stalking the American carrier USS George Washington, as it headed to South Korea for a visit.

China is rapidly acquiring advanced submarine building capabilities, and providing money (for fuel and spare parts) to send its subs to sea more often. Moreover, new classes of boats are constantly appearing. The new Type 39A, or Yuan class, looks just like the Russian Kilo class. In the late 1990s, the Chinese began ordering Russian Kilo class subs, then one of the latest diesel-electric design available. Russia was selling new Kilos for about $200 million each, which is about half the price other Western nations sell similar boats for. The Kilos weigh 2,300 tons (surface displacement), have six torpedo tubes and a crew of 57. They are quiet, and can travel about 700 kilometers under water at a quiet speed of about five kilometers an hour. Kilos carry 18 torpedoes or SS-N-27 anti-ship missiles (with a range of 300 kilometers and launched underwater from the torpedo tubes.) The combination of quietness and cruise missiles makes Kilo very dangerous to American carriers. North Korea and Iran have also bought Kilos.

The Yuan does not look like a Kilo class when viewed in its entirety. My Jane's Warship Recognition Guide says the Yuan looks like an Oyashio by its silhouette and they're correct. The Kilo does not have the same kind of pronounced hump the Yuan has, nor does the Kilo have diving planes on the sale like the Yuan has. The Yuan's sail has a slight trapezoidal shape while the Kilo's is a perfect rectangle. The Yuan's sail is closer to the front, right in the same location and proportions of the Song which indicates a commonality of the two in the inner pressure hulls. The Kilo's sail is set near the middle of the sub.

The Yuan uses a conventional + shaped tail while the Kilo uses an unusual T shaped tail.

The Yuan is also much longer, roughly at 75m in length based on GE measurements, while the Kilo is at 66m.

The only thing the Yuan has in common with the Kilo is the look and shape of the bow along with the formation of torpedo tubes. Which is quite trivial.

The Russians also never said that the Yuan is a Kilo clone. To be more precise the Russians are up in arms claiming that the Yuan is a copy off their Amur/Lada class subs. Though the length of the Yuan, at 75m vs. 66m also for the Lada, debunks that, as well as the Russian practice of putting the sail towards near the center of the sub, which is true of the Amur/Lada as well.

The Chinese have already built two Yuans, the second one an improvement on the first. These two boats have been at sea to try out the technology that was pilfered from the Russians. A third Yuan is under construction, and it also appears to be a bit different from the first two. The first Yuan appeared to be a copy of the early model Kilo (the model 877), while the second Yuan (referred to as a Type 39B) appeared to copy the late Kilos (model 636). The third Yuan may end up being a further evolution, or Type 39C.

As many as three of the newer second type Yuans have been observed being delivered to the PLAN ESF fleet headquarters and at this stage, even newer Yuans would be impossible to count.

Preceding the Yuans was the the Type 39, or Song class. This was the first Chinese sub to have the teardrop shaped hull, and was based on the predecessor of the Kilo, the Romeo class. The Type 39A was thought to be just an improved Song, but on closer examination, especially by the Russians, it looked like a clone of the Kilos.

Debunked as above.

The Yaun class also have AIP (Air Independent Propulsion), which allows non-nuclear boats to stay underwater for days at a time. China currently has 13 Song class, 12 Kilo class, one Yuan class and 32 Romeo class boats. There are only two Han class SSNs, as the Chinese are still having a lot of problems with nuclear power in subs. Despite that, the Hans are going to sea, even though they are noisy and easily detected by Western sensors.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hts.../20081021.aspx

PLAN appears to have 14 to 16 Song boats based on ORBAT. Only few Romeos remain, most of the older design vessels are the Ming Class which has a number of critical refinements over the Romeo.

The article once again does not even consider the Google Earth evidence with as many as six nuclear subs being spotted in one North Sea Fleet base. If two are Hans, which by the way, have been refitted and improved, what are the other four subs? It does not consider that at least three different kinds of nuclear subs are spotted by other sources in the even larger sub base at Hainan, and at least two nuclear subs have been spotted in a second North Sea Fleet sub base, while two new nuclear subs are spotted being fitted in one shipyard, while a third is being carted out of the assembly hall in that particular GE image. Also failed to count that two new Yuans are spotted being fitted in one shipyard, the GE image circa October 2007.