PLAN submarines Thread II

[Skywatcher]

Interesting. I wonder how the PLAN nuke fast attack boat school is handling the increased demand for personnel?

[crobato]

They may be creaming personnel off the Song groups. One noted captain of a Song was transferred to captain one of the nuclear subs, although the type of the nuclear sub is not described.

For training, its not hard to imagine that the two retired Hans maybe used as some sort of land based training ship and simulator.

On the picture, I should note that the two 90 meter subs, which should be the upgraded Hans, appear to sport a darker color than the other subs. In my opinion, the 093s aren't in sea trials, they have been out already for quite some time, and compared to the upgraded Hans which got a new tile coating, the ones on the 093s maybe greying.

As for the 093s being in trials, in my view, given the relationship between the 093 and the 094, the latter appearing like a stretched version of the former, the 094 won't have been approved for production and be on the water unless the 093 would have gone into trials first and get certified.

If I were to speculate on the numbers of 093s based on deployment, that would be 3 here at least on Jianggezhuang, one in Xiaopingdao, and at least one in Sanya. I suspect 094s are not stationed in Jianggezhuang. As for the 091Gs, that would be two in Jianggezhuang and one in Sanya, none in Xiaopingdao. The 093 that doesn't have the planes in the sail has yet to be reaccounted, and I suspect that its this design, which I may tag as "093G" for now, is the one on trials.

[planeman]

Can someone please give a brief synopsis of PLAN sub fleet. Active classes, numbers etc.

[tphuang]

They may be creaming personnel off the Song groups. One noted captain of a Song was transferred to captain one of the nuclear subs, although the type of the nuclear sub is not described.

For training, its not hard to imagine that the two retired Hans maybe used as some sort of land based training ship and simulator.

On the picture, I should note that the two 90 meter subs, which should be the upgraded Hans, appear to sport a darker color than the other subs. In my opinion, the 093s aren't in sea trials, they have been out already for quite some time, and compared to the upgraded Hans which got a new tile coating, the ones on the 093s maybe greying.

As for the 093s being in trials, in my view, given the relationship between the 093 and the 094, the latter appearing like a stretched version of the former, the 094 won't have been approved for production and be on the water unless the 093 would have gone into trials first and get certified.

If I were to speculate on the numbers of 093s based on deployment, that would be 3 here at least on Jianggezhuang, one in Xiaopingdao, and at least one in Sanya. I suspect 094s are not stationed in Jianggezhuang. As for the 091Gs, that would be two in Jianggezhuang and one in Sanya, none in Xiaopingdao. The 093 that doesn't have the planes in the sail has yet to be reaccounted, and I suspect that its this design, which I may tag as "093G" for now, is the one on trials.

I think it's an easy conclusion that there are at least 5 093s out in the sea somewhere. Do you have the Xiaopingdao pictures right now? I'd think Sanya should have the first 2 093s. Also, I don't see the horizontal planes on the 093 in the bottom right picture.

[crobato]

The Xiaopingdao image hasn't been updated yet, so the 093 is still there. You can measure the length of that sub and compare it to the ones in the JZG base.

If I magnify the image large enough on the sub on the bottom right side, it does appear to have planes on the sail.

On the upper left corner, one of the subs look thinner than the other, but it seems that its because its lower on the water than the other 'fatter' sub. You can see the water height by looking at the hatch located near the rear, and its closer to the water than on the "fatter" sub.

However, one must note that the "thin" sub has a darker color, with a glossier shine than the other sub despite having identical lighting conditions and angles. My take on this is that this sub is new with a new tile coating, like that we have see on the 039B Yuans. Note too how dark the coatings on the two Hans on the upper right side.

For Planeman, a short synopsis. You can just run up the math:

Romeo Class --- China built like 126 of these and exported many. Almost all retired from the inventory now.

Ming Class --- Based on the Romeo class with a "plus" shaped rudders instead of the D shaped rudder of the Romeo. Still like 12 to 17 still around. For subs that are based on an old design, much of the Mings are built new in the 1990s. Still active. Probably a flotilla (4 subs per flotilla) each in the NSF, ESF and SSF. The ESF might have two flotillas.

Kilo Class --- The most documented of all subs in the PLAN. 4 were received early back in the 90s, two of them 877s and two of them the 636s. The 636s feature a longer length, a stronger motor, and a quieter 7 bladed skewed propeller. In addition, China ordered 8 more 636 EMs, which are capable of firing the Klub missiles. Total 12 subs. One flotilla of 636 EMs in the SSF and another in the ESF. The four earlier Kilos have gone into refits in a program starting 2005. Although Russia has proposed that she overhaul the Kilos and upgrade them to the new standard, apparently China decided to overhaul the Kilos on her own and apply her own modifications, e.g. probably like being able to fire YJ-83s underwater.

As a note, four Russian Navy Kilos were also sold to a Chinese company for scrapping.

Song Class --- I would say probably about 14 to 16 of them, heavily bending on the 16. One 039G flotilla in each of the three fleets, NSF, ESF, and SSF. ESF also have a flotilla of the four earlier Songs, for a total of two flotillas for the ESF.

Yuan Class --- First 039A came out in 2004, followed by a lull with two subs (039B) coming out in late 2007. Total numbers are unknown and it can be more. My estimate, one 039A, three 039B.

Han Class --- Five 091s were built, pennants, 401, 402, 403, 404 and 405. Its been rumored that 401 and 402 has been retired, but it has never been confirmed. Major refit undergoing for the Han class, and it appears that three of the subs have been finished, starting with 405 and working downwards numerically. 403 is the latest to come out of the upgrade. So three are active, two status unknown. Of the three, two is in the NSF, one is in the SSF.

Xia Class --- For a long time, China's only boomer. Went into a major refit starting in 2005 and is now apparently out.

Shang Class --- It is projected that 6 to 8 of these will be built. Jane's have reported launchings in 2001, 2002 and 2006. One sub was visible in the Huludao drydock through Google Earth circa 2004-2005. The sub was formally shown publicly in August 2006 in the PLA's 80th Anniversary. One sub appears in GE imagery at Xiaopingdao, three in Jianggzheguang, the imagery matching that of internet photos. Internet photos have also shown at least one 093 in Sanya. Actual numbers are unknown but it appears its currently in serial production right now. Its odd that the sub shown in the PLA exhibition hall did not have planes in the sail but other photos of the 093 have planes in the sail.

Jin Class --- Projected about five will be built. Photos and GE imagery has identified one in Xiaopingdao. GE imagery and leaked photos has shown two more being finished in Huludao in May 2007. Satellite imagery as well as internet photographs have also shown at least one 094 is in Sanya.

GE image of Huludao, currently seen right now, also shows the tail end of a sub coming out of the assembly hall. Its hard to identify if its a 094 or 093, but surely belongs to one of the two based on its dimensions.

Of the above, the Yuan, Shang and Jin are in current production.

[tphuang]

this is kind of interesting, the warhead of a JL-1 SLBM. Not sure how large it is though.

[crobato]

I get the impression that the subs on the upper left corner, the darker one is slightly longer than the other.

[crobato]

A Yuan in the process of being fitted out.

[antimatter]

palm trees, sanya? paracel islands?
both kilo and song.

[tphuang]

A Yuan in the process of being fitted out.

yeah, I've seen this picture a few times, not really sure what to make of it. I wish we have some complete pictures of new Yuans coming out.

[crobato]

Its a lot easier to make an identification when you have the first one or two subs out. But without any pennant number, any other sub looks like the other and one cannot tell if they're new, old ones returning to base, or the same ones in different locations. Like with the experience of Songs, the numbers are difficult to track once serial production started and subs trickling down the river every other month or two. This would be the same as counting brand new J-10s at CAC's airfield or J-11s in SAC's airfield. At this point, just like the way we count the planes, the more reliable indicator would be to see the subs as they are stationed in their final assigned ports and bases as an indicator of orbat.

[crobato]

Probably a post refit picture of the Xia. Note the limber holes on the turtleback are all covered probably a self closing mechanism.

[Roger604]

Why don't they just retire this sub? What's the point in refitting it? After all, it's not like China lacks the money to build more.

Unless it's going to be used as a test ship.... perhaps as an SSGN?

[RedMercury]

I think you and many other people are under the false belief that PLAN and the Chinese military have more money than they know what to do with.

[crobato]

My guess old submarines are useful as training ships. In the case of the Xia, a training ship for future 094 crews.