PLAN submarines Thread II

[crobato]

In addition to what manoverbored said, I believe the Hans and the Xia were not tropicalized until this decade. Before this decade, much of their patrols seem to be only in the northern and colder areas. The base in Sanya is significant because everything that goes there has to be tropicalized by now, including the improved Hans.

The concept of fleet subs going to deliberately engage enemy combat forces proved to be a total flop in World War II. We are not talking of the Germans here, who choose to go with the commerce raiding doctrine, or the Americans, who use an expeditionary littoral warfare concept on their subs, which is to choke off points of Japanese shipping and transits.

I am talking of the IJN here, and the Japanese arguably built the best subs in the world at that time if best means big, speed and firepower. They got the fastest and sleekest subs, armed with the most effective--both speed, range and reliability wise---torpedo in World War II, the Long Lance.

And yet the result is a most mediocre sub combat record compared to the Germans and the Americans. The problem is that the Japanese attach their subs into fleet functions, covering their main fleets or in an attempt to engage the enemy fleet. Many subs didn't even find their targets during their careers.

If diesel subs are used in a manner where they ambush choke points, they are seriously effective. Note the number of warships American diesel subs managed to torpedo out of the IJN.

In the Falklands War, the British nearly lost a destroyer because one of the Argentinian Type 209s managed to torpedo it. The torpedoes turned out to be duds. Actually in hindsight, the British felt they could better support their operations in the Falklands if they had diesel subs to operate in the littoral waters like in deploying special forces. Expeditionary littoral warfare is one reason why diesel SSKs are being studied again closely.

Another example of a choke point strategy is what the British originally planned to do with their Upholder class SSKs. These are fairly large SSKs, over 2200mt surfaced, got flank sonars for their hunter killer purpose. They are meant to ambush Soviet SSBNs by patrolling choke points like the gap between Iceland and Greenland, or to head directly to the artic sub bases north of Russia and sink the SSBNs along choke points or in waters heading in and out of the bases. Of course, it never happened, the subs got sold to Canada.

The Soviets had a bastion strategy of their own, where a large number of diesel subs, mainly Foxtrots which are among the largest SSKs ever built, would patrol these choke points as well as in the areas where their SSBNs would roam.

Open water fleet warfare can still be difficult for a nuclear sub if the nuke lacks the top speed for it. The Russians consider having a speed of 30 knots minimum as a necessity for carrier hunting. Their Victor IIIs can go like 33 knots, and the Alfas have been observed going at 40 knots under NATO convoys. SSBNs for the most part can go at most 25 knots, and many SSNs including the original Han, and the French subs like the Rubis, will go up to 25 knots.

[lilzz]

USN hunter sub like to operate alone. It's Seawolf is highly sophisticated.
But I wonder how would it stack up agasint a wolf-pack.

Let's say it consists of 1 093 and 2 Yuans operating combat unit. How would that group go against 1 SeaWolf in South CHina Sea. Because once it fire a torpedo against one, it would expose its position.

The thing is you don't know until you actually try it out. On the other hand, this forum isn't going to discuss who vs. who issues. Sorry, but no can do on this topic - crobato in mod's hat.

[SteelBird]

USN hunter sub like to operate alone. It's Seawolf is highly sophisticated.
But I wonder how would it stack up agasint a wolf-pack.

Let's say it consists of 1 093 and 2 Yuans operating combat unit. How would that group go against 1 SeaWolf in South CHina Sea. Because once it fire a torpedo against one, it would expose its position.

The thing is you don't know until you actually try it out. On the other hand, this forum isn't going to discuss who vs. who issues. Sorry, but no can do on this topic - crobato in mod's hat.

A warming reminder. Hey Guy, you broke a rule of this forum that you quoted in "RED" color.

It gave me a jump that I supposed some mod has intervened your post, but after reading clearly, I found that you wrote that yourself.

[crobato]

No, I edited it.

[SteelBird]

No, I edited it.

Every time a mod edits one's post, it always shows a label at the bottom that someone has modified the post at what time and for what reason. Why this post looks original?

[crobato]

Because that is optional. I forgot about it that time. See now I added it.

[man overbored]

"In the Falklands War, the British nearly lost a destroyer because one of the Argentinian Type 209s managed to torpedo it. The torpedoes turned out to be duds."

No, this is a story from the Falklands that is just not true. The San Luis launched a three torpedo spread at some British ships on 01 May from maximum range and the attack failed to register any hits. The San Luis had a problem with their fire control that went unresolved during the conflict. They could not use wire guidance on their torpedos, limiting their ability to find and hit targets. British Sea King helicopters effectively kept the Argentine subs out of range of any combat ships. There is no record the RN even noticed this torpedo attack.
The one occasion where the Brits had a torpedo scare was during the attempt to fight the fires on HMS Sheffield. Sheffield's crew began jettisoning their torps so they would not detonate in the fire, and escorting ships seeing these torps floating in the water at first thought there was a submarine attacking.
The Project 705 Lyra ( Nato Alpha ) class is not as fast or deep diving as often claimed. Read a book called "Rising Tide: The Untold Story of the Russian Submarines that Fought the Cold War" by Gary E. Weir and Walter J. Boyne. It is written from interviews of survivors of the Russian submarine service and discusses the limitations of classes like the Lyra and the one off Project 661 Anchar ( Nato Papa ) class. This one boat managed 44.7 knots but was hellaciously noisy doing so. This speed did damage to the hull and fittings. Lyra's were never this fast and they were also noisy boats. The Type 671 Shchuka ( Nato Victor ) class were not quiet either.
In general surface ships and submarines cannot use their top speeds and maintain anything close to acoustic silence, so neither use their maximum speeds very often. If a Lyra put the pedal to the metal you would pick this up on sensors all across the Pacific. So you stalked each other at far slower speeds. Still, a nuclear sub is uniquely qualified to stalk a carrier as her quiet speed might be fairly close to the speed used by the carrier strike group whos escorts are using sprint and drift tactics, plus a nuclear sub can hunt this carrier for days or weeks staying submerged and fairy quiet. No diesel boat can hope to accomplish this.
All a modern diesel boat can do is position itself in a choke point and hope something good comes it's way. They cannot be used offensively against combat ships in the open ocean.

[crobato]

From 007. These two looks like the modded 091 Hans with the flank sonars.

[crobato]

Just my hunch. The PLAN nuclear submarine fleet is currently divided into three flotillas, about at least four each.

Flotilla No. 1 - Xiaopingdao

2 091G, 1 093, 1 094


Flotilla No. 2 - Sanya/Linying

1 091G, 1 093, 2 094


Training or testing Flotilla - Qingdao

2 091 (moored training ships), 1 092G (refitted training ship), 1 093 (testing ship)

[maozedong]

this new Yuan looks like different than other Yuan,the back ground around so many mountains,I think it's from Wuhan,said this is the third new Yuan.

[crobato]

Actually that picture is sometime ago, and that's the original Yuan (count the number of sink holes in the aft). Background may not be original, possibly PS'ed in.

[crobato]

"Let's say it consists of 1 093 and 2 Yuans operating combat unit."

I want to clarify something about wolf packs and that is, it tends to work best when you have all the submarines involved to be of one type, not a mix of different types. In WWII, the German wolfpacks consist of one type, the Type VII, with different variants.

If you have nuclear and diesel subs working together, the result is that it tends to cancel out each of their respective advantages. The nuclear sub would be slowed down and tied to the slower speed and endurance of the diesel sub. On the other side, the relatively noisier nuclear sub would cancel out the stealthiness and quietness of the diesel sub.

Right now, the wolf pack tactics for PLAN subs may be limited because there are too many types. I don't think each type can work with another without canceling their advantages out. The Songs and the Yuans may work together, whether the Kilos can work with them, depends much on the Kilo's own quietness. I'm not sure if Mings or even Romeos can be added as that would also depends on their noise levels. The improved Hans, Shangs and Jins cannot work and mix with the Songs, Yuans and Kilos like oil and water.

[crobato]

Blog on the Songs and Yuans. Some interesting additional information on the Songs and Yuans.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5020569d01009y2l.html


西方大胆推测中国元级攻击潜艇战力 (2008-06-26 14:45:35)
标签：潜艇 综合战力 军事
　　具有里程碑意义的宋级潜艇　

　　此次"令人惊讶的遭遇"主角--中国宋级常规潜艇，代号039型。1994年5月，美国侦察卫星发现一艘新型常规潜艇从武昌造船厂下水。这 就是中国从上世纪80年代中期开始研制的039型潜艇。来自《简氏海军年鉴》的报道称第一艘宋级潜艇代号3 20，第二艘代号321，从1998年后以每年两艘的速度进行建造。估计到2010年左右，中国海军将会有 20艘宋级潜艇服役。　

　　宋级潜艇为双壳体结构.全艇依次分为七个舱，即雷弹舱、指挥舱、前蓄电池舱、后蓄电池舱、柴电机组舱、 推进电机舱和轴系舱。该级潜艇水下排水量　 2250吨，采用单轴七叶高弯角螺旋桨推进器，具有很好的静音效果，水下最高航速可达22节，水上最高航速 15节。宋级潜艇装有围壳舵和十字型尾操纵面，具有良好的操纵性，并实现了自动驾驶和自动平衡。艇上陀有侧 推装置，离靠码头灵活方便。艇上还装有可弃压载和短路吹除系统，强化了潜艇的动力抗沉能力。此外，该型潜艇 在水下一定深度可快速上浮脱险，并具有与深潜救生器对接的能力。　

　　《简氏海军年鉴》的资料显示，宋级潜艇配备有非常强大和全面的武器系统，具有在全深度发射线导鱼雷、自 导鱼雷、反舰导弹和布放水雷的多种能力。在鱼雷方面，装备有鱼5型反潜鱼雷和鱼一4型反舰鱼雷。前者是中国 海军装备的第一种线导鱼雷，也是中国常规潜艇装备的第一种反潜鱼雷。该型鱼雷弹径533　毫米，使用先进的 "奥图"式热动力推进系统.采用线导加主被动声导联合制导方式，最高航速达50节，最大航程30公里，可有 效对付核潜艇。鱼一4型则为电动声导反舰龟雷，最高航速可达40节，最大航程15公里。宋级还装备有可从鱼 雷管发射的潜射反舰和反潜导弹。潜射C-802反舰导弹最大射程超过100公里，可有效攻击中小型水面舰艇；CY-1反潜导弹的最大射程约20公里。反舰和反潜导弹的配备使宋级潜艇可从远距离攻击敌水而舰艇和潜艇，而不必 因过度接近敌舰艇而被发现。在武器分配上，宋级潜艇艇艏装有6具鱼雷发射管，具有全深度发射武器和布放水雷 的能力，其中两具可发射线导鱼雷，其他可发射声自导鱼雷和潜射导弹。最大武器携带量为18件，通常为6枚线 导鱼雷、6枚声导鱼雷、6枚潜射导弹，水雷则可携带30枚。　

　　美国《华盛顿邮报》则称整体看，宋级潜艇是中国常规潜艇发展的一大突破，中国在该级艇上第一次使有单轴 七叶高弯角螺旋桨推进器：第一次装设了数字显示声纳、光电桅杆以及整合式的自动化指挥系统，第一次配备线导 反潜鱼雷：第一次配备潜射反舰导弹；第一次配备潜射反潜导弹。不过，中国向俄罗斯购买基洛级潜艇一事，也说 明宋级可能仍有一些没有解决的问题。从照片上看，早期的宋级潜艇没有敷设消音瓦其艇体存在突出物，静音效果 应该不会太好，而俄罗斯基洛级潜艇的总设计师马卡诺夫则指出：宋级潜艇排水量不超过2300吨，但指挥台围 壳设计却很高，对航行稳定性和武器使用将会有影响。　

　　来自美国军方的消息称解放军一直试图对宋级潜艇进行改进。从照片上看，该级艇每一批次都会有所变化。最 新的宋级潜艇也被称为"宋改"，其与早期型号的主要区别是大副提高了隐身性能，这次"跟踪美国航母"的就应 该是这种"宋改"型潜艇。而日本《世界舰船》杂志则认为中国军方对该级艇的不满直接导致了基洛 626M型潜艇的引进和元级潜艇的登场。　

　元级潜艇赶超世界水平　

　　长久以来，各国的情报部门始终对中国潜艇的动向格外关注。曾儿何时，几幅网络中闪出的潜艇图片令美国情 报部们躁动不止，五角大楼于2004年7月份抢先对外宣称中国开始装备新式潜艇-元级，多年模糊的预测终于浮出水面。　

　　"一石激起干层浪"。美国"大嘴"立刻引起"各路神仙"的热情跟风。西方专家们连称意想不到的速度，出 乎意外，出乎意外......随之，各种分析纷沓而至络绎不绝。七嘴八舌中，唯独不见往年对中国新式武器装 备随手拍砖的场景，取而代之的是穷经皓首式的认真分析和煞有介事式的热情判断。　

　　一派观点认为，"元"级应该是俄罗斯"基洛级"的弟弟，从基洛级演化而来。主要证据有两点 ：　

　　首先，元级潜艇排水量与基洛级基本相当，并具有基洛级略微突起的K型粱，且突起轮廓更为明显，可以判定 元级潜艇内部空间结构和布局基本与基洛级相同。其次，指挥台位置和尺寸有调整。原宋级潜艇的指挥塔尺寸过大 ，水下潜行时上下面的阻力差过大，必须依靠首舵来抵销上仰力矩，同进还会增大潜艇水下潜航的阻力；而新潜艇 的指挥塔围壳比例与基洛级相当接近，显示中国军工设计人员已经有意识的在弥补这种缺陷。如此，俄罗斯基洛级 和国产宋级潜艇的技术特长相互综合，性能肯定更进一步，可以称为"超级宋"潜艇。　

　　也有一派观点认为，元级潜艇应该属于俄罗斯阿穆尔级的改进型。俄国军方是这种言论的始作俑者。俄海军技 术分析人士普遍认为元级潜艇在设计上参考了阿穆尔级的概念。无级的外轮廓采用了水滴型设计，而舍弃了原03 9级潜艇的鲸型，并且继承了基洛级和阿穆尔级简练的外形。通过判读元级艇体升降舵和尾舵的位置，俄专家还认 为元级已经装有被动声纳系统和拖拽声纳系统。而且，通过"已经证实"的039改进型潜艇消音瓦和吸音橡胶层 技术，元级潜艇甚至可能使用了更为先进的整体橡胶覆盖技术，使水下噪声降到100分贝以下，这样降噪水平已 经接近俄式潜艇。　

　这还没完。要不说"高手就是高手"，透过仅有的这几幅图片，国外的"神仙们"就运用自己积累地"丰富知识 "和想象力，把元级内部结构给"拆了个七零八落"。　

　　武器系统方面，英国《简氏防务周刊》声称，早在2000年，俄罗斯革新家发计局就已将3M-54"俱乐部"潜射导弹技术转交中国，该导弹可从水面舰艇或基洛877EKM／636型柴电潜艇上发射，随 后引进的基洛级潜艇更是掌握了先进的潜射导弹和鱼雷，这些威力巨大的"大规模杀伤技术"，"毫无疑问"的将 用在元级潜艇上。除俄制武器外，元级潜艇肯定也会选择搭载中国自行研制的新一代海军装备。美国海军情报部亚 洲东京处主任约翰麦克劳尔称中国最近部署的3 艘元级潜艇具有"远程打击能力"。他们配备了C-802型反舰导弹(从艇艏4个鱼雷发射管发射)。而在其指挥台与第1逃生舱出口之间，还部署了6枚　 CSS1型潜射巡航导弹，其射程在700-1200公里之间，可以打击大型航母编队，此外这种导弹还采用了中国自己的深海冷发射技术。　

　　国外专家们对元级潜艇静音性能的推测最为"大胆"。美国《华盛顿邮报》指出，中国肯定会对潜艇的推进系 统进行升级，如把电动机轴速由500转／分降至 250转／分，同时采用双层弹性垫座、发动机加装软垫等措施，大幅降低潜艇的噪音强度。由于中国一直有"引 进技术胜过购买技术的"传统，当中国从俄罗斯购买了877EKM、636型基洛级潜艇后.必然对潜艇的推进 系统进行消化吸收。通过运用这些静音措施可使元级潜艇噪音降低到96分贝的惊人水平，直逼有" 黑洞"绰号的基洛级潜艇。鉴于美国海军目前仅有一种主动式声纳能捕捉基洛级的反射回音，因此对元级潜艇的噪 音指标高度关注是意料之中的事。　

　　常规潜艇为追求最大水下航程，不知愁煞了多少才华横溢的天才设计师，终于进化出相对完善的AlP系统。 这次对于中国的元级潜艇，国外众媒体是异口同声的、坚定的、毫不含糊的指出中国已经拥有了AlP技术，理由 是中国的盟友巴基斯坦已经从法国获得阿戈斯塔90B型潜艇的AIP技术，法国这项AIP　技术被称之为ME SMA(独立潜艇能量模型)蒸汽涡轮机系统，以乙醇和液态氧为能源，驱动一台涡轮式发电机。这项技术可以把 潜艇水下续航力增加3到5倍。通过加长一段艇体，可以方便的装到许多现役潜艇上。　

　　AIP系统使常觇潜艇潜航能力大为提高.但同进部题也随之而来。由于长时间潜在水下，无法用天文导航进 行位置修正，仪靠陀螺定位就很容易积累误差。但从中国三位上程师于1999年在韩国获得国际金奖的论文《于 海流数据库的水下导航信息融合方法探讨》来看，中国很可能已解决，水下导航的精度问题。论文作者通过对水下 导航信息融合算法进行比较，创造性地提出了通过建立完善的海流数据库，以此来增加精度较高的导航信自、参照 源，并提出适用于水下导航的信息融合算法。通过大量的计算机模拟仿真实验和海试证明，该方法能大大提高水下 导航的精度，具有很强的实用性。　

　　无级潜艇的电子系统同样受到了美国方面的高度关注，美罔军方认为元级的声纳系统相当先进，拥有一套装设 在艇艏的中频主被动搜索与攻击舰壳声纳.　及一套装设在舷侧的被动低频搜索声纳阵，还将配备国产拖曳式被动 声纳阵列系统。‘该光电桅杆(潜望镜搜索)非常时髦，从桅杆外形看，光电探测系统包括　CCD 电视摄象机、红外成像仪以及激光测距器等，还配有平面搜索雷达和雷达告警系统等。艇中作战指挥系统也已高度 数字化，所有探测系统与武器系统以及推进系统均已集成在一起，全艇配属操作人员大幅降低，估计仅需三十余名 ，显示出作战性能相当不错。"　

　　21世纪海军战略的最大疑问　

　　美国海军军事学院副教授、中国安全政策专家哥德斯泰恩博士和美国海军军事学院军事研究员、退役海军上尉 默里最近在《美国海军学报》上联合撰文，对中国潜艇的最新进展进行了分析和评估，德斯泰恩和默里认为美海军 不应低估中国组建一支足以挑战优势海军的潜艇部队的能力。他们还提出这样一个问题从历史上看. 作为大陆强国的德国和苏联对海上强国制海权的挑战均以失败告终，而中国是否能够在德苏之后改变历史，获得成 功，是二十一世纪海军战略最大的疑问之一。　

　　该文还指出，在美军将注意力集中于中东和中亚之时，中国正继续迅速进行军事现代化建设。具体到潜艇部队 ，中国有如下几方面动作：购买8艘新犁基洛级常规潜艇继续完善宋级和元绒常规潜艇加快新一代核动力潜艇的研 制和装备进度大力加强潜艇部队的武器装备、兵员训练及军事理论学习。这些都说明中国优先发展海军的战略调整 将以潜艇部队建设为核心。　

　　两位作者还对中国潜艇部队在台海军事形势中可能扮演的角色妄加猜测，以一种别有用心的"恐惧"和"担忧 "语气称从国近期强调发展常规潜艇部队来看，北京倾向于对台湾交施封锁策略。凭借台湾现在的武器装备和军费 开支，在可预见的末来，根本不可能突破大陆的封锁。美军当然具有这样的实力。但是随着中国潜艇力量的增强、 战略思想的革新以及长期针对美军展开训练，中国海军将变得更为棘手。中国潜艇部队已开始采取措施，加强反潜 艇作能力，这是有异于它以往的战略思想的此外，中国海军在借鉴日俄战争经验和苏联军事理论的基础上更是已制 订出打击美海军的"诱饵"战略，即把美海军诱入预定同标区，然后集中各种反航母力量进行伏击。中国是否能终 结大陆强国在与海上强国争夺制海权时总是失败的历史定势呢?这是一个非常有趣的问题。

[crobato]

This is an interesting report, because it states that the PLAN had successfully test fired 3 Club-S 3M-54E missiles and all three were successful. This defies reports that there have been problems of such. The original test was supposed to fire six missiles, but the quick satisfaction of the results had the test number reduced to three. The report also mentions that the missile exceeded its specified maximum range of 220km by hitting the target at 250km.

中国试射俱乐部S导弹准确命中250公里目标！
2008-07-03 10:18:41.0


据外电报道，来自俄罗斯海军工业界的权威消息，中国海军成功试射了Club-s（3M-54E）潜对舰导弹。导弹的试射活动是在中共十七大前进行的。俄罗斯 Rubin设计局、Novator设计局的技术人员参与了这次试射。此次试射中，一共试射了三枚Club-s潜对舰导弹，3枚都准确命中了相应目标，其中一次射程达到了250公里，而俱乐部S导弹的最大射程设计值 为220公里。因此原来计划准备进行6次试射，结果只用了3次就完成了计划。

俄罗斯生产的俱乐部导弹，是可以装备在俄制基洛级潜艇上的一种先进的潜对舰、潜对潜导弹家族。 Club-s导弹是这一家族中反舰导弹的最新成员，其采用亚音速巡航，超音速攻击的作战方式。导弹发射后初始速度为0 .9马赫，末尾攻击目标的冲刺阶段速度为2.5马赫，射程达220公里。面对俱乐部S反舰导弹的攻击，即使 是美军最先进的宙斯盾战舰也极难防御。美军就称宣称，美军战舰装备的宙斯盾防空系统难以抵御解放军装备的俱 乐部等新式超音速反舰导弹的攻击。但是当时也有部分评论认为，由于印度此前曾多次试射俱乐部导弹且由于无法 找到目标而无一命中，因此对中国海军装备的这型导弹是否真正形了成战斗力，值得怀疑。

解放军海军此次到导弹试射证实了印度宣称中国俱乐部导弹也出现与其相似问题的荒谬，也纠正了美军部分专家认 为"中国海军的击落潜艇在水下找不到目标"的错误论断。据称由于此次俱乐部S导弹试射，试射的距离较远（最 远达250公里），目标的部分信息需要由其他飞机（如Ka-28等）或战舰提供，展示了中国海军完善的数据链系统以及过硬的军事素质。
俄导弹家族的新成员--"俱乐部"-N和"俱乐部"S

最近，以研制海军多用途导弹而闻名的俄罗斯"创新者"试验机械设计局又成功地推出了两种新型的 导弹系统---水面舰艇使用的"俱乐部"-N（Club－N）和潜艇使用的"俱乐部"S （Club－S）。这两种导弹系统均可发射反舰和反潜导弹，用于攻击各类水面舰艇、潜艇、固定目标和地面慢 速目标。

这两种系统主要发射3M-54E、3M-54E1、91RE1和91RE2四种型号的导弹。

3M -54E是一种反舰巡航导弹。该导弹由发射助推器、亚音速低空巡航级和超音速有效载荷组成，主要用于执行反舰 任务。该导弹长8．22米、重2300千克，最大射程220千米。3M－54E1该导弹由发射助推器和亚音 速有翼巡航级组成。弹上飞行控制系统有一个气压高度表，可使导弹保持精确的飞行高度，地形匹配和卫星导航系 统确保导弹有较高的命中精度。该导弹长6．2米、重1780千克，战斗部较大，最大射程可达300千米。该 导弹主要用于反舰，也可攻击地面目标。

91RE1是一种潜艇发射的反潜导弹，该导弹可在潜艇时速高达15海里的情况下从150米深的水下从潜艇的 533毫米鱼雷管发射。该导弹长8米，重2050千克，最大射程35千米。91RE2是一种水面舰艇发射的 反潜导弹。它可从水面舰艇的垂直发射装置发射，也可从舰上倾斜发射器发射。该导弹长6．5米，重1200千 克，最大射程40千米。

"俱乐部"导弹系统的最大特点是用标准的火控系统控制多种型号的导弹，针对不同的任务和战术环境，能够选择 相应的导弹。据称，该导弹系统的性能在世界同类武器中是出类拔萃的。

据悉，印度已决定引进俄罗斯的"俱乐部"导弹系统，并装备其"基洛"级877EKM潜艇上。经改装升级后的 潜艇可发射3M－54E1和91RE1导弹。

[tphuang]

yeah, they got this news from Kanwa. I think it's the June issue that mentioned this. Funny they don't mention it took PLAN 2 years before actually testing it out. There must have been a lot of issues with it before.