PLAN submarines Thread II

[crobato]

That's called SOSUS. It was originally laid to track down Soviet subs during the Cold War era. It can be used to track their own subs too, since early USN nukes aren't very quiet either. It has become a bit outdated though, because the avenue of interest has shifted from the open water to the littoral waters, while subs have become a lot quieter; the Han then is still as noisy as an early generation nuclear sub. For the new situation that needs a new generation of sonar equipment. More relevant now is the use of specialized surveillance ships that use SURTASS.

http://www.surtass-lfa-eis.com/

[dlhh]

That's called SOSUS. It was originally laid to track down Soviet subs during the Cold War era. It can be used to track their own subs too, since early USN nukes aren't very quiet either. It has become a bit outdated though, because the avenue of interest has shifted from the open water to the littoral waters, while subs have become a lot quieter; the Han then is still as noisy as an early generation nuclear sub. For the new situation that needs a new generation of sonar equipment. More relevant now is the use of specialized surveillance ships that use SURTASS.

http://www.surtass-lfa-eis.com/

Thanks, Crobato for the website.

FYI, Singapore's latest La Fayette Class FFG from France uses these SURTASS which is supplied by the USA.

Thats why exercises with Singapore & Malaysia would be a good idea. Malaysia is about to receive the latest French Scorpene subs which has a profusion of the latest sonars plus good software to manage the sonars.

[man overbored]

I have never heard and imagined such thing as sub designed in cold water is not adaptable in tropical water. This is for me like saying if you designed a car in Sweden where it's cold then the car will not run in Hawaii where it's warm. This is just hard to imagine.

Look at all the volvos and Saabs running around in hot and warm weather.

Eh, this is not so unusual. A few years ago one of the USCG's icebreakers pranged a prop in the Antarctic and a call went out for a Russian icebreaker to fill the gap. The Russians could not provide one of their nuclear icebreakers because according to the Russians their reactors would not cool sufficiently in the warm waters of the mid-Pacific where sea surface temps are typically around 29 degrees C ( 84 degrees F ). The Russians instead had to send a diesel icebreaker. I won't name classes but certain western subs needed all the cooling they had to operate in tropical waters, and even then reactor cooling temps were pretty sporty.

[crobato]

To Jack,

Saabs and Volvos learned their lesson long ago when they started decades ago to begin selling their cars in more tropical countries. The Germans too. Actually the Swede and German car makers had their "hot" experience selling cars in the US, because some parts of the US like Nevada, can get a soaring 120 degrees F, and it was discovered that many European cars didn't have the air conditioning and radiator cooling to meet these challenges. They learned the hard way why even US cars back in the sixties and seventies have powerful air conditioning systems and hefty radiators. Then you started to sell cars in the Middle East, Australia, etc,.

Back to submarines. Those Type 209s Germany exports are often tropicalized. And yes, there has been issues about diesel and nuclear subs that have previously worked in cooler climates suddenly confronting the tropical environment, not to mention you also need to cool the crew, as it can get pretty hot even down there. A more recent example is the used subs that Sweden is selling to Singapore. These subs are going to be modified for the climate.

[man overbored]

To Jack,

Saabs and Volvos learned their lesson long ago when they started decades ago to begin selling their cars in more tropical countries. The Germans too. Actually the Swede and German car makers had their "hot" experience selling cars in the US, because some parts of the US like Nevada, can get a soaring 120 degrees F, and it was discovered that many European cars didn't have the air conditioning and radiator cooling to meet these challenges. They learned the hard way why even US cars back in the sixties and seventies have powerful air conditioning systems and hefty radiators. Then you started to sell cars in the Middle East, Australia, etc,.

Back to submarines. Those Type 209s Germany exports are often tropicalized. And yes, there has been issues about diesel and nuclear subs that have previously worked in cooler climates suddenly confronting the tropical environment, not to mention you also need to cool the crew, as it can get pretty hot even down there. A more recent example is the used subs that Sweden is selling to Singapore. These subs are going to be modified for the climate.

Sweden leased one of their most modern AIP subs, HMS Gotland, to the US Navy for two years complete with a crew which was rotated monthly ( afraid they might decamp permanently in San Diego's warn climate ). The USN used it to see just how big a threat these small AIP subs represent ( short story is not much, good only for barrier ops in choke points ). The boat has to be re-ballasted and re-trimmed to deal with the greater salinity of the Pacific Ocean. One indication of their limited capability, the Gotland is one of the most advanced subs of her type but it had to be brought to San Diego on the back of a chartered well deck ship. it could not make the passage on it's own since such small boats lack the fuel, fresh water, and supply storage for long voyages.

[adeptitus]

One indication of their limited capability, the Gotland is one of the most advanced subs of her type but it had to be brought to San Diego on the back of a chartered well deck ship. it could not make the passage on it's own since such small boats lack the fuel, fresh water, and supply storage for long voyages.

I don't think it'd be fair to discredit the Gotland class on its limited deployment range. The submarine was designed and built to protect Sweden in its home waters and not all the way across the Atlantic.

During WW2 the German Navy was able to deploy U-boats across the Atlantic, and these U-Boats were smaller displacement than the Gotland class. So in terms of capability, I don't see why a diesel sub designed for trans-Atlantic voyage couldn't do it while snorkeling (kinda defeats purpose of stealth, but at least it can make the voyage).

These days the threats presented by an attack sub isn't limited to its low noise level and torpedoes. In the next decade we'll probably see sub-launched cruise missiles with 2,500-5,000 km range. By the time your ASW assets arrive the sub is already long gone.

[sandyj]

Yu-8 torpedo: Apparently, it uses the underwater version of thermobaric explosive:

Yu-8 (鱼-8) torpedo is developed by China as the electrically powered counterpart of the Chinese Otto fuel II powered Yu-6 torpedo, with which it shares many components and technologies, with the exception of propulsion system.
Since Otto fuel II powered torpedo cost up to three times of the electrically powered torpedo, Yu-8 torpedo is developed as a cheaper alternative. Very little information is released regarding the torpedo and this new torpedo is shrouded in secrecy. From the very limited information circulating, it is revealed that Yu-8 (鱼-8) torpedo is capable of both ASuW and ASW like Yu-6 torpedo, and it can be launched from a variety of platforms including surface ships, submarines, shore battery, and aircraft. Like all other Chinese torpedoes, Yu-8 torpedo can also be used as part of CAPTOR mine type mine system. Yu-8 torpedo is reportedly the first Chinese torpedo to incorporate wire guidance with optical fiber.
In 2007, domestic Chinese sources have claimed that Yu-8 torpedo had become the test vehicle and subsequently the first torpedo to be armed with a new warhead that was developed by the Chinese naval research institute. The new warhead utilizes sodium hydride compounds / chemical reaction and once detonated, large amount of sodium powder is released. The chemical reaction of sodium powder and sea water produce huge amount of hydrogen at very high temperature within very short period of time and the within range of several dozen meters, the temperature instantly increased to over two thousand degrees (celsius) as the chemical reactions taken place with hydrogen and oxygen, destroying the target even if no direct hit is scored. During the test in East China Sea, a retired twelve thousand ton ship was hit by two Yu-8 torpedoes on one side, and the side that was hit was completely melted within fifteen minutes.

Source: wikipedia.org

[crobato]

As an academic note, the forward torpedo tube arrangement for the 093 and 094 is similar to the Han's and Akula's. That is four on top and two on the bottom like this.

OOOO
-OO--

Not like a Kilo or Yuan's in this configuration.

-OO--
OOOO

This artist illustration didn't get it right.

[Pointblank]

I don't think it'd be fair to discredit the Gotland class on its limited deployment range. The submarine was designed and built to protect Sweden in its home waters and not all the way across the Atlantic.

During WW2 the German Navy was able to deploy U-boats across the Atlantic, and these U-Boats were smaller displacement than the Gotland class. So in terms of capability, I don't see why a diesel sub designed for trans-Atlantic voyage couldn't do it while snorkeling (kinda defeats purpose of stealth, but at least it can make the voyage).

These days the threats presented by an attack sub isn't limited to its low noise level and torpedoes. In the next decade we'll probably see sub-launched cruise missiles with 2,500-5,000 km range. By the time your ASW assets arrive the sub is already long gone.

1. German U-boats when they were deployed in the Caribbean or past the Equator were enormously uncomfortable ships to be working in, due to a lack of air conditioning. The same could be said about Soviet submarines that operated far away from the Soviet Union into the same regions.

2. Assuming you can provide targeting and mid-course corrections... otherwise, it is a blind shot.

[crobato]

I'm not even sure if this cryptic rumor even deals with submarines. Maybe someone can read through the jargon.

今日海军最猛图：新鱼三装填中 漂亮！


科罗廖夫 2008-06-0

Google translated.

Today, most Meng Navy plans: three new fish filled in the beautiful!

Korolev Liaofu 2008-06-0

Also here below, a Song gets a new torpedo.

[RedMercury]

I think it says what it says, nothing cryptic. Just remarking a new Yu-3 being loaded. Only thing intriguing to me is how much better is this new Yu-3?

[tphuang]

I'm not even sure if this cryptic rumor even deals with submarines. Maybe someone can read through the jargon.

今日海军最猛图：新鱼三装填中 漂亮！


科罗廖夫 2008-06-0

Google translated.

Today, most Meng Navy plans: three new fish filled in the beautiful!

Korolev Liaofu 2008-06-0

Also here below, a Song gets a new torpedo.

this seriously is interesting, this Yu-3 variant apparently uses pumpjet propulsion now and it never had this before.

[adeptitus]

1. German U-boats when they were deployed in the Caribbean or past the Equator were enormously uncomfortable ships to be working in, due to a lack of air conditioning. The same could be said about Soviet submarines that operated far away from the Soviet Union into the same regions.

2. Assuming you can provide targeting and mid-course corrections... otherwise, it is a blind shot.

Adding air conditioning in 2008 is a lot easier than 1942! European diesel subs today aren't designed for trans-Atlantic voyages because there's no practical military reason. But back in WW1 and WW2, German and Italian navies built merchant subs that traveled between Germany & US, and France/Italy & Singapore. The Italian merchant subs of WW2 were only 1,200 ton displacement too.

As for #2, I was referring to cruise missiles and not AShM's.

[man overbored]

[QUOTE=adeptitus;83359]Adding air conditioning in 2008 is a lot easier than 1942! European diesel subs today aren't designed for trans-Atlantic voyages because there's no practical military reason. But back in WW1 and WW2, German and Italian navies built merchant subs that traveled between Germany & US, and France/Italy & Singapore. The Italian merchant subs of WW2 were only 1,200 ton displacement too.

As for #2, I was referring to cruise missiles and not AShM's.[/QUO


The USN started putting refrigerated air conditioning in it's subs in the late 1930's based on our experience operating in the Pacific after WWI. We knew we would have to fight in tropical waters and the crew could not even function in the heat. The interior of the boats became a giant mold culture.
The four Soviet Whiskey class boats sent to Cuba in 1961 during the Cuban Missile Crisis all had major heat related problems. All but one suffered complete engine failures and could not remain submerged because internal temps rose to levels dangerous to humans. All four boats had crew members dropping from heat exhaustion while submerged. Three needed to be towed at least part of the way home, to a tender where at least one engine could be resurrected. The heat melted or deformed major engine components.
Aside from crew safety the use of AC minimizes condensation on equipment, particularly electronics, kept food fresher, greatly reduced mold and minimized health problems. US boats had fresh water showers and plenty of water for hygene and washing uniforms.
The German U-Boat crews were animals to sail those small subs in the places they did, and the boats themselves were tough.
The Israeli's operate a class of sub not much different than the U-212's of Germany and Italy in the Indian Ocean well away from Israeli waters. They keep a pair in the IO for use against Iran mainly.
Since the Dutch based their most modern subs on the Barbel class of the USN, they should be quite capable of long range patrols. Barbel's had at least an 11,000 mile range. The problem with all diesel boats aside from noise is the lack of speed since their electric motors must draw from battery banks, lack of patrol endurance, limited by fuel range and battery endurance at speed is limited to one hour max in any class of boat. They are good for patrolling a choke point only. Diesel boats do not have the speed to stalk warships. They cannot make a high speed transit even on snorkel simply because the snorkel would fold over much above ten knots! Compare this to the Brits rushing one ( or maybe more ) of their SSN's 8000 miles submerged at high speed to the South Atlantic and, almost upon arrival, stalking and sinking the General Belgano, then bottling up the rest of the Argentine Navy simply by it presence. No diesel boat ever made has that combination of speed and endurance.

[SteelBird]

I'm not even sure if this cryptic rumor even deals with submarines. Maybe someone can read through the jargon.

今日海军最猛图：新鱼三装填中 漂亮！


科罗廖夫 2008-06-0

Google translated.

Today, most Meng Navy plans: three new fish filled in the beautiful!

Korolev Liaofu 2008-06-0

Also here below, a Song gets a new torpedo.

Google translation is completely wrong. However, the sentence above uses something like slang, and is difficult if not impossible for computer to translate. Here's your correct translation: "Today the navy's most cool photo, new Yu-3 in installation, beautiful!"