This is a discussion on PLAN submarines Thread II within the Navy forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; ChinaGuy, was referring to you posting about this.. "No. PLA forces are designed to operate in all environments so that ...
The Last Jedi
ChinaGuy, was referring to you posting about this..
and he answered that well."No. PLA forces are designed to operate in all environments so that they don't break down and cry like other armies when the headset breaks or the batteries run out. "
It's a fact that in a submarine without technology you are dead in the water. You can't see.. you can't hear you cannot navigate. You cannot use your weapons.
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Junior Member
I don;t just claim I actually work in industry and You are making baseless opinion without any shred of evidence or scientific background. At least i have good grounding in engineering and have degree. I don't just blabbered my mouth. You can disprove my theory and other people has confirmed my statement You? nothing!Originally Posted by Mysterre
Super Moderator
I think most of us on this forum have some knowledge in this area or are at least logical. Stating that you have engineering degree really doesn't show much. It's well know that China has been far behind in submarine for many years. It has improved in the recent years, but it still has a lot of catching up to do. I'm not convinced of the often quoted chart from late 90s where it showed 095 to be less quiet than Akula I class, but I certainly think it will still be at least a generation behind Virginia class. You can look at 039B or 093 and then compare it with known lo signature designs and see that China has ground to make up in sig management. The large sub that supposedly replaces No. 200 is definitely an improvement, but it's still got catching up to do.
It's not just David Axe's opinion that China is behind, but rather the opinion of the submariners that I've talked to.
Junior Member
Tphuang you are programmer without any background in engineering. And you are very impressionable young guy, Did you friend actually tailed Chinese submarine and did he actually know which submarine that he tailed?. Most likely your friend has biased view based on reading the same article like the one by David Axe
You blindly trust this guy and socalled expert because you cannot make up logical deduction based on some basic knowledge in engineering. All you have to go is reading somebody opinion because he or she supposed to be expert.
I never said that Chinese submarine is equal the best of US has to offer but based on their technological base in nuclear power and advanced in recent years they should be closing the gap very fast!
the fact that they built 4 or 5 Type 93, 2 type 94 show that they have confidence in their submarine design. Off course you want to keep improving and leap frog to the next level. Giving their deep pocket and the experience of building 2 generation of nuclear submarine and 3 different type of conventional Sub, they are more than qualify to go to the next level. This bad mouthing is unwarranted!
Nuclear power is nuclear power whether you build it for civilian plant or submarine plant!. The same with quieting technology there is equivalent in civilian tech as well
Last edited by Hendrik_2000; 10-12-2012 at 04:51 PM.
Banned Idiot
Why? Why would they be "closing the gap" when others are advancing also? The target they are aiming at is moving too
Member
But at what rate is each moving?
Junior Member
But not at the same rate. Following your logic China never catch up say in the economic. But She did in fact come from nowhere to become the 2nd largest economy in the world.
Or take the telecommunication industry. it was not too long ago the like of Erickson, Northern Telecom, Bell lab are the leader in telecommunication you don't see any Chinese company. Out of nowhere now Huawei, ZTE is the biggest Telco in the world now how you explain that?
Don't tell me it is different in military. US do have lead in military because disproportion allocation of the wealth to the military due to strong military lobby( military industrial complex)
But it will not last forever, the coming budget cut will necessarily cut back on research and development.
Another thing forget about the generation of "Kelly Johnson" a truly genius . Those generation and the generation of baby boomer are retiring in the droves
These days the best and brightest doesn't go to engineering instead they go to finance, law and service industry like medical and its related industry. Because there is more job security and better buck.
In fact I just come from company party there are 500 people and 80% have grey hair!.
In China the average age of the space and rocket engineer is around 30 at their peak of creativity
Last edited by Hendrik_2000; 10-12-2012 at 05:21 PM.
Banned Idiot
Oh, so you're an "engineer", are you? Sanitation engineers also call themselves engineers. They are also known as trash collectors. Your engineering background is meaningless without further specification. Even then it's probably still meaningless. As for your "theory", YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. There is nothing for me to disprove, but you on the other hand have alot of BS that you have NEVER backed up. China has 7-axis CNC mills. China has access to open source literature on acoustic dampening. China's subs don't look "too different" from other subs. Is this the content of your "theory"? You were saying that you don't just "blabbered" your mouth? Well here you are definitely just blabbering your mouth because all this nonsense constitutes NOTHING. It constitutes a joke of a theory. You don't know squat about the current state of Chinese submarine technology and you have nothing to show for it, including all that stuff you've been blabbering above. Nothing. Just a bunch of innuendo from just another outsider like the rest of us. And yes, you ARE an outsider, so stop pretending your "engineering" degree gives you any kind of advantage over everybody else on this topic. It doesn't. And it's showing, no matter how hard you pretend you know something you don't. Yes, China now has 7-axis CNC mills, access to literature, and 'similar' looking subs. Does any of this tell you, me or anybody else how advanced China's sub technology is? No, it does not. And you know it. And more importantly, the rest of us know it. Game over.
Banned Idiot
These opinions could be wrong. A Chinese submarine was able to get within striking distance of the Kitty Hawk, and in a war situation would have sunk it. In that particular case, the US submariners protecting the carrier didn't know where the Chinese sub was coming from. It was probably trailing behind the carrier force. So, in a way, the submariners you spoke to was right when they said the Chinese subs were behind, because they like to tag US ships from behind.
Yes, he is. He wouldn't say so otherwise.
Last edited by ChinaGuy; 10-13-2012 at 05:13 AM.
The Last Jedi
This did happen back in 2006. And it has not happened since. We had quite a discussion on this "back in the day"A Chinese submarine was able to get within striking distance of the Kitty Hawk, and in a war situation would have sunk it.
Chinese sub surfaces undetected behind USS Kitty Hawk
A member named sea dog posted this.
There's much more to this incident than meets the eye.The key is this.
This is the USN's ANNUALEX that occur in this region every year at the same time. So it's quite likely that the PLAN simply tasked a Song SSK there before the exercise began. Try doing this stuff in wartime. Plus I highly doubt they were "shadowing" anything for any number of days. Songs and other diesels are only acoustically quiet at low speeds only. I'm talking 4 knots or less. Above that they emit a highewr radiated noise and drain their batteries much quicker.The Kitty Hawk and several other warships were deployed in ocean waters near Okinawa at the time, as part of a routine fall deployment program.
And this is also telling.
It's telling because they knew when and where to look for it on the surface. It's my guess, that they may have conducted acoustic searches and knew where it was before this occured. Sounds too coincidental to me. But of course the Pentagon will never release details of this as they don't want the Chinese or anyone else being able to assess our abilities in tracking these subs. And also the USN certainly wouldn't respond in a hostile manner as we are not at war with China at the moment. This was in international waters. So it's not really a big issue.The surfaced submarine was spotted by a routine surveillance flight by one of the carrier group's planes.
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Senior Member
The Chinese sub actually purpose left those signature and acoustic level to left you all pick it up and let you all think you gotcha them. One of the sub crew told me. But this kind of thing is abit classify, the crew of Song sub didn't tell me much...
The Last Jedi
^^ I'm not going to argue with you or anyone on this subject.
because...
There truly is.There's much more to this incident than meets the eye.
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Banned Idiot
Well, the Chinese subs were undetectable when submerged. This is why it didn't appeared to have happened again. Surfacing to make a point once is more than enough. You can be sure Chinese subs tag US carriers all the time within the second island chain as part of their ASBM system. If I go have a chat with the Chinese sub crews, I am certain they will be able to confirm. I was told in the past that the US carrier battle group had an acoustic signature comparable to a hippo doing a break dance on the second floor of an apartment block, where everyone all around could hear and feel what's happening. So tagging such a thing was not hard at all.
Last edited by ChinaGuy; 10-13-2012 at 11:34 AM.
Banned Idiot
Think the general consensus is that China's nuclear sub is lacking behind, but how about their diseal subs? Are they up to world standard?
Banned Idiot
They are up to the standard of being able to strike at US carriers. Why should they need anything more ? The PLA is a people's army, they would never waste the people's money unnecessarily by doing stuff that is not required.
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