PLAN carrier thread III

[su-27]

Popeye, you said that China will be a mature carrier player between 12-15 years... How many chinese CVs do you think will be ready? I think, if Varyag will be ready next year, two indigenous carriers ready or, at least, launched.
If the first generation of chinese carriers will be of about 40.000t, the second will be surely at least of CVF size

[dollarman]

I disagree with Popeye. In terms of carrier design and construction, the Chinese are, I feel, ahead of the Indians. Sure, the Indians have the edge because they have operated carriers before, but the main advantage that brings is in tactics and deployment. Meanwhile, the Chinese have had oppurtunities to study both western and Russian carriers in depth with blueprints. Also the Chinese shipbuilding industry is more experienced than the Indians when it comes to building large ships. When construction time comes, the Chinese side will presumably have more funds available. So when the carriers are launched, the Chinese carrier would have superior quality of construction and design than the Indian's indigenous carrier (which is too ambitious IMO and running into trouble as of late). Of course, the Chinese crew's training and knowledge of how to operate the carrier will be behind the Indians.

Please, I'm not bashing, I'm neither pro-China or anti-India, this is just my objective view. Of course the Indians, from their experience of operating carriers, may know which traits are desirable in a carrier, but it's not like the Chinese can't ask any given foreign country these question (Even a U.S carrier commander would probably supply answers to a limited extent on a friendly visit).

[bd popeye]

Originally Posted by su-27

Popeye, you said that China will be a mature carrier player between 12-15 years... How many chinese CVs do you think will be ready? I think, if Varyag will be ready next year, two indigenous carriers ready or, at least, launched.
If the first generation of chinese carriers will be of about 40.000t, the second will be surely at least of CVF size

At least three possibly four. As long as the Varyag stays in service. We have many years to wait and wring our hands just waiting on that very first PLAN CV to go to sea...

Dollarman I fully respect your opinion.

Sure enough China has great experience building large ships. But not large warships. Warships are built to diffrent standard than merchant vessels. The compartmentation, redundant systems, watertight intregrity, engineering plants & firefighting equipment on a warship is of a diffrent standard than a merchant vessel.

[tphuang]

From what I heard:
Varyag is for training -obviously and using su-33 as the naval fighter
The first generation of domestic carriers will probably be similar in size, but will have a catapult. I think the word is two to be built and should be sailing on its own power around the middle of next decade. Operation is another issue. (50-70K tonnes?)
They also seem to be interested in building an helo carrier that is larger than 071 and smaller than Wasp class. (25-35k tonnes?)
The second generation of domestic carriers from what I hear will be nuclear powered and similar in size to the American carriers. (80k tonnes+?)

Yes, it is a huge leap to go straight to something so large for a carrier, but that's what they've been doing with a lot of their ships. Before 071, Yutings only had around 5000 tonne in displacement, but 071 right now is probably similar to San Antonio class in displacement (we know that it's length is over 210m and beam is around 25m).

[su-27]

Tphuang have you heard anything about the SU-33s? If they will be acquired only in small number as a pro tempore fighter to equip Varyag or a big number to equip 2 or three CVs? In the first case is possible that is planned for equip the new CVs a fifth generation fighter...

Popeye, you think to a French size CV as first Chinese CV, but starting with the Varyag wich is far bigger, isn't too little a 40000t CV? I think to a ship of 50k - 70k as said Tphuang.

I think also that first Chinese CVs may be in size and in design similar to CVF: seems to be the answer of all our suggests: near 70k t, variable design (stobar or catobar), about the same number of planes of Varyag...
Do you agree?

[scorpioking]

Originally Posted by su-27

Tphuang have you heard anything about the SU-33s? If they will be acquired only in small number as a pro tempore fighter to equip Varyag or a big number to equip 2 or three CVs? In the first case is possible that is planned for equip the new CVs a fifth generation fighter...

Popeye, you think to a French size CV as first Chinese CV, but starting with the Varyag wich is far bigger, isn't too little a 40000t CV? I think to a ship of 50k - 70k as said Tphuang.

I think also that first Chinese CVs may be in size and in design similar to CVF: seems to be the answer of all our suggests: near 70k t, variable design (stobar or catobar), about the same number of planes of Varyag...
Do you agree?

There are Pics and article saying the SF is going to produce J-11BJ, which is SU-33

[bd popeye]

Popeye, you think to a French size CV as first Chinese CV, but starting with the Varyag wich is far bigger, isn't too little a 40000t CV? I think to a ship of 50k - 70k as said Tphuang.

Remember now...The French Navy R91 has a greater capacity because of it's configuration. It has a larger hangar and no ski ramp. The FN R91 can easily carrry 40 aircraft.

[su-27]

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Remember now...The French Navy R91 has a greater capacity because of it's configuration. It has a larger hangar and no ski ramp. The FN R91 can easily carrry 40 aircraft.

I see, but I think that Chinese have, with russian help, the capability to build a ship similar in size and design of CVF and able to carry about 50 or more planes, as Varyag.
Other question: in the case that new CVs will start with STOBAR SU-33s, is a 40000t ship enough big to operate with this fighter? R91 carry 40 aircraft but are the far little Rafales compared with su-33.

[bd popeye]

Originally Posted by su-27

I see, but I think that Chinese have, with russian help, the capability to build a ship similar in size and design of CVF and able to carry about 50 or more planes, as Varyag.
Other question: in the case that new CVs will start with STOBAR SU-33s, is a 40000t ship enough big to operate with this fighter? R91 carry 40 aircraft but are the far little Rafales compared with su-33.

I think Obi Wan would be better suited to answer that question...

The old RN Ark Royal carried the very heavy F-4 Phantom. It did displace in excess od 50,000 tons.

I'm sure naval engineers can figure out the aircraft capacity of a 40,000 ton dis. CV.

[su-27]

In fact seems to me that was some difficult to operate on Audacious class with F-4s and SU-33 seems to me bigger... The planned CVA-01 was designed to operate with Phantoms and was over 50k...
We have talked about CVA-01, CVF... so I agree with you that Obi Wan is the right person that could help us...

The question is: possible, in a ship of about 40k, have a variable design and operate in STOBAR mode about 40 aircraft, about 36 of them being SU-33s?

Second question: could China develop, as first indigenous carrier, a ship similar in size and design (variable design) to CVF?

[Obi Wan Russell]

On the 'Audacious' class (Eagle and Ark Royal, final configurations for both) they were WW2 designs that were stretched to their limits, but operation of large aircraft like the F4 and the Buccaneer (similar in size and weight to the phantom, but better suited to smaller decks due to features like blown flaps) was certainly within those limits. Ark Royal also cross decked several american types such as the Intruder and the corsir without difficulty on more than one occassion. The waist catapult was the preferred option as it was 199ft in length and could launch aircraft up to 50,000lbs whilst the bow cat was only 151ft and a little more limited in it's capacity. CVA-01 was intended to have two BS6 cats at 250ft long which would have been able to launch fully laden F4s whilst at anchor. With catobar, the size of the ship is less important than the equipment ie cats and wires, so a smaller ship say 30-35,000tons fitted with the same cats and wires could launch the same aircraft as a larger ship of twice the displacement. The main difference would be in how many aircraft could be carried and how easily they can be spotted around the deck, the larger ship having the advantage (you can never have too much space on a carrier) and this principle applies to STOBAR as well. An SU-33 could launch from a 20,000ton carrier like Invincible, but couldn't possibly land back aboard.

The question is: possible, in a ship of about 40k, have a variable design and operate in STOBAR mode about 40 aircraft, about 36 of them being SU-33s?

A frsh design, as opposed to the Varyag, could certainly do so if the designers devote the ship to aviation as in western designs and drop the Soviet style daliance with multiple weapon systems. Make up your mind, do you want a carrier or a cruiser? It can't be both an excel at either role.

My apologies for my absence, when the forum came back up I was locked out for a while; thought I might have upset someone...

[Norfolk]

Obi Wan,

What, if I may ask of you, do you think we should expect, or at least look for, in the anticipated new-build PLAN CVs? I would be quite shocked if full-fledged CATOBAR carriers emerged, and I think it exceedingly unlikely, but it would come as just as great a shock if the new CVs turned out to be at least 50,000-tonners, albeit STOBAR, but designed, constructed, and fitted-out more along Western lines with as genuine fleet strike carriers, rather than the glorifed fleet ASW carriers the Russians have favoured up til now.

I guess what I'm asking, and I suppose that this is as much a strategic question as an engineering one but I am utterly lacking for competence in the latter field, is given your professional knowledge and experience, just what may we expect China (and its neighbours) to be both capable of, and willing to build? A modest light fleet carrier of little more than 40,000 tonnes (if that) to match IN (or hypothetical Japanese) construction, or something much more ambitious and substantial, say even something up to the scale of Kuznetsov class, and built for but not with, CATOBAR?

[su-27]

Thank you very much, Obi Wan!

So, Popeye, seems you are right! So, the question is: better build many 40k carriers, to have a ship less expensive and faster to build, or try bigger ships?

I try to see a ship superior to future Vikrant class but less advanced than CVF...

pardon Obi Wan, can you say me your opinion about an hipothetical PLAN CV wich resembles in size and design the CVF?

[bd popeye]

Thanks Obi Wan!...When I was on the USS Hancock CVA-19 we launched A-3's with no problems. We also recovered them regulary

So, Popeye, seems you are right! So, the question is: better build many 40k carriers, to have a ship less expensive and faster to build, or try bigger ships?

Before we jump off into how many CV's the PLAN should have...Let the PLAN operate just one CV for a few years before any final design decision is made. I'm sure the PLAN has plans in the works for their own CV.

[su-27]

I agree with you Popeye but do you think that the test ship will be the Varyag or that needs also a new builded prototype ship before launch a definitive class?