PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos II

Originally Posted by NikeX

JSF is a mistake. People are comparing it to the TFX program and the mess that turned out to be

The Quest for Commonality: A Comparison of the TFX and JSF Programs

Yet USN and USAF and USMC and something like a dozen otyher countries are near committed to it..

Two different aircraft for two vastly different missions. F-14 was designed to work with the E-2C and kill Russian bombers at very long ranges from the fleet. F-18 is supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades

When F-14 was designed there was no such thing as multi role aircraft, by the end of its life F-14 was given multi role capablities via a variety of upgrades and targeting pods.

I was talking about the superhornet -- a development of the vanilla F-18 which turned it into an F-14 sized long range multi role aircraft capable of performing both strike and long range interception.

So really both aircraft are very similar in role. And even if they held different roles, the point you were arguing is that large fighters like the F-14 and Flanker are obsolete. The fact that the USN have commited to super hornet, which itself is near F-14 sized, disproves your point.

The trade off is aircraft size and the fact that on a smallish carrier like the Liaong you cannot carry very many J-15s. Plus you have to move this big airplane on the deck. Its a handful. The US Navy tried big airplanes on carriers (A3J "the Whale" and A5) and decided after it was all said and done to go with smaller aircraft. It will all depend upon the mission the PLAN assigns to their carrier

Moving the big airplane on deck is not much of an issue; and in terms of space... well how many Mig 29Ks can you put in the space of one Su-33? 1.1? 1.2?
How many Mig-29Ks do you think liaoning can carry in place of Su-33? And woudl that increase in aircraft quantity be a worthwhile trade off versus the larger and more capable Su-33/J-15? (Considering that J-15 has a larger nose, thus larger and more powerful radar, it's a larger plane, so can naturally carry more payload and has greater range and thus endurance)

But yes, the size of the airplane embarked will naturally tell you the kind of missions the carrier is intended to provide. As well as the ambition.

Originally Posted by delft

Correction: The Su-51 (? I remember the aircraft but am unsure about the designation ) was developed after the Su-27, so perhaps the airshow birds learned it from the Flankers.

Actually they were the Su-26, Su-29, and Su-31, and Su26sm or something they were introduced in 1988 and featured a 14 cyclinder radial and a straight wing with no dihedral in order to enhance inverted flight characteristics and not inhibit the roll rate which is very high with nearly full span ailerons with spades. The airframe is very robust but light and clean aerodynamically, they were rated at +12 to -10 gs and were mainly airshow birds, I do believe someone did actually break one? catastrophycally as I recall?

At the risk of further polluting this thread further, I like to set the record straight! Won't be commenting on MiG27Ks further in this thread!

Originally Posted by tphuang

Exactly, the Russians are replacing Su-33s with Mig-29K, because of two reasons.
1) Mig-29K is in production and Su-33 is not due to the Indian order of Mig-29K and lack of Chinese order for Su-33
2) Mikoyan needs orders to stay open. Outside of Mig-29Ks, what have Mikoyan sold recently? Mig-35 project is said to have some domestic order, but with the way Russians announce orders these days, we won't know how many will really be ordered until they get delivered.


assuming you are referring to Mig-29 here, the uprated engines aren't going to do that much. With the limitations of taking off stobar carrier, the bigger fuel tanks aren't going to help you that much. Unless RD-33K gets significantly more efficient, you are not going to see much of an increase in range or payload.

The original Soviet Era MiG-29K that lost the fly-off against the Su-33 first flew in 1988 the "current" MiG-29K (derived from the MiG-29M) took its first flight in 2007. It has over 1000kg of extra fuel capacity or just over a 1/3 more than the original, that's what gives it the range improvement, the extra thrust of the RD33MK just allows it to lift the extra weight.

The MiG-29 is STOBAR the Su-33 is STOBAR the J-15 is STOBAR so not sure what STOBAR has to do with the MiG-29K being the "Worst Naval Fighter once the Harrier goes"

Same goes for the finances of Mikoyan and whether they have any orders as to how that impacts on whether
the MiG-29K is the "Worst Naval Fighter once the Harrier goes"

Mikoyan, Sukhoi and the majority of the Soviet era aircraft companies were all put into a single commercial entity the United Aircraft Corporation in 2006. Technically Mikoyan and Sukhoi are OKBs (Opytnoe Konstructorskoe Byuro, or Experimental Design Bureau in English) not manufacturers, so orders to Mikoyan, Sukhoi really doesn't come in to it.

Originally Posted by tphuang

Please actually put the effort into understand different versions of this before making this kind of comparison.

I couldn't possibly agree more!

It's all too evident that we're running dry when we keep tossing India's effort into this thread...but just a reminder folks, keep this up it won't be long before the fat pilot comes to shut things down again.

Might as well leave it in the fridge until there's new material available.

Originally Posted by kwaigonegin

noticed the flag is different too. The one above has blue stripes at the bottom.

I think, it doesn't matter wether it is PS'd or not because the reason for a commissioned carrier to bee out at sea is to serve as a runway for aircraft.

My opinion: there are two or three aircraft and a couple of pilots (the first movers under the navy pilots) who get every month for one or two weeks a chance to gain experience. And when time is over or all aircraft in maintenance, the carrier will return to port.

Milestone! Warm congratulations to the Chinese first AMF fighter planes （J-31）fly

success!

This morning when 10：32 points, China's second kind of stealth fighter, five generation fighter AMF, J - 31, has formally test flight from the ground.

China become the world's second, at the same time test two five dynasties prototype country.

Previously only the United States at the same time developed F - 22 and F - 35 two five generation machine

cv16 was back，there's sth interesting on deck,upload pic later。

official pics

Looks like the Chinese are making arrested landings. I'm sure of that! a big step for the PLAN....one thing though..why are there not any stray skid marks? By looking at this photo it appears that the Chinese are making perfect landings. Not even the most skilled US Naval aviator makes perfect landings...'nuff said.

Originally Posted by ZG-HHK

Milestone! Warm congratulations to the Chinese first AMF fighter planes （J-31）fly

success!

This morning when 10：32 points, China's second kind of stealth fighter, five generation fighter AMF, J - 31, has formally test flight from the ground.

China become the world's second, at the same time test two five dynasties prototype country.

Previously only the United States at the same time developed F - 22 and F - 35 two five generation machine

Are there pictures, videos of this flight.

All of us here would be interested in seeing them if there are.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

Are there pictures, videos of this flight.

All of us here would be interested in seeing them if there are.

Thanks.

Hi Jeff,

All pictures of the maiden flight are in the Shenyang New Generation Fighter Jet thread. Some very pretty eye-candy there.

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

I disagree. I believe the 45 Mig-29K/KUBs that the Indians operate will be very effective and good aircraft for their carriers. In concert with the Tejas/LCA, I believe they will have very decent airwings for their needs.

Sometimes some on these boards are as prone to "discount," and look down their noses at the Indians as they feel some Americans are of doing the same to China. And there are many who do...but not many in the military.

In my view, the practice is not only very short sighted, if it were to exist within the military circles, it would also be quite dangerous.

The US did that once upon a time with the Japanese...and had to learn a very difficult and costly lesson.

Come on old buddy, are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that buying the Mig29K, naval LCA and Rafale is a sound and reasonable decision?

Sure the Mig29K is a decent aircraft, but it is bettered in pretty much every way possible by the Rafale, and made effectively redundant by the Rafale purchase. I honestly cannot think of anyone who would rather be using Mig29Ks when they have the options of using Rafales instead.

I am not dismissing India because they are Indians, I am dismissing them because they have consistently made absolutely awful decisions and failed time and time again in the indigenous efforts, and seem to have done precious little to make sure those failures are not repeated in the future.

There is a difference between underestimating someone and being realistic about their prospects and capabilities. Respect and regard has to be earned. That is why those in America who dismiss China have become fewer and fewer as the years pass as China consistently prove their doubters wrong and continue to exceed expectations.

I will review my opinion of the Indian indigenous defense establishment when they actually achieve something worthy of consideration.

Not everyone is destined to be a Japan or China, and besides, as I remember it, things didn't go all that well for the Japanese when they attacked America.

India certainly have the potential for greatness, but thus far they have done a woeful job of fulfilling that potential, and I personally think the root cause is a serious case of the Entitled Child Syndrome. If you only tell a child that they are amazing and will do great things, then sure, that child will have amazing confidence, but chances are, he/she will not work as hard as they can because they are taking greatness for granted as a given, instead of something they need to earn through hard work and sacrifice. It seriously looks like this is playing out on a national level with India.

Westerners tend to hold a very rose tainted view about Indian potential and keep prophesying that India will catch up and surpass China because it has a similar size, yet crucially also enjoys all the trappings of democracy, independent judiciary, free press, yada yada yada. The problem is that much of that 'inherent' advantage that India is supposed to enjoy is more myth than fact. In the meantime, Indians have gotten an entirely undeserved sense of entitlement to being a superpower, and are not actually working anywhere near as hard as they could, or should, to make that a reality.

The real difference between India and China is in the drive and hard work of ordinary citizens in the countries, and the sacrifices the two peoples are making to achieve greatness.

If you really want India to succeed, stop coddling their egos by making excuses for their failures and give them a cold hard slap of reality.

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Looks like the Chinese are making arrested landings. I'm sure of that! a big step for the PLAN....one thing though..why are there not any stray skid marks? By looking at this photo it appears that the Chinese are making perfect landings. Not even the most skilled US Naval aviator makes perfect landings...'nuff said.

computer aided landing pops?