PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

Originally Posted by kyanges

Thank you for your response to the second part. I see what you're saying, and the evidence you're looking at. Weren't those were all staged PR shots though? And being such staged PR images, they aren't a good reference for how the sailors really operate, right?

Regarding Russian carrier ops and their slower tempo, that seems like it helps answer your question on how the Chinese would hypothetically, "leapfrog the Russian Navy". If, as you say, the Russians simply do not understand, then that can work hand in hand with the explanation Blitzo and others have given you. They have not improved, because they have no wherewithal, financial or otherwise, to improve.

Nothing you've said so far regarding this, actually goes against anything others have said it seems...

It will be 5 years at the earliest before China would allow a CCTV embedded coverage of Liaoning's operations - aviation ops, stuff like that. The high amount of masters and PhDs in the initial crew implies these are meant to be instructors in the future. That said, they're very busy and not in the mood to show cameras around...getting a few pics released through unofficial channels is the most we'd get for the coming decade, then some short CCTV footage now and then.

Or, until the first successful carrier landing and takeoff...

Did You Guys Fight This Before?

Originally Posted by NikeX

Okay here it is: Watching the PLAN crewmen marching around on the deck and standing at parade rest in front of that helicopter, it is clear that they do not have the looseness to do the dance of the deck. To put it another way, the PLAN is too rigid in their bearing to be loose enough to respond to the fluid situation a carrier deck calls for. Its the coolness factor and PLAN will have to find it if they want to be successful with carrier ops.

So... what are you going to say then if they stay loose and simply walk around the chopper even in a staged photo shoot? I would imagine your comments would be something along the line of "if they can't even strike a pose for a staged photo shoot, they seem not to have the discipline needed to accomplish the highly collaborative CV deck operation." In other words, no matter what they do, they won't look good.

A staged photo shooting is like: "staged". As you correctly mentioned, it is a parade. no one expects anyone to march in an actual combat as they would in a parade. common sense?

Originally Posted by MwRYum

It will be 5 years at the earliest before China would allow a CCTV embedded coverage of Liaoning's operations - aviation ops, stuff like that. The high amount of masters and PhDs in the initial crew implies these are meant to be instructors in the future. That said, they're very busy and not in the mood to show cameras around...getting a few pics released through unofficial channels is the most we'd get for the coming decade, then some short CCTV footage now and then.

Or, until the first successful carrier landing and takeoff...

I'll buy that sir, well nobody wants a bunch of journos around putting words in your mouth.

=GT posted this on CDF

Rumor from F*Y*J*S says take off from 16 done

“10时55分，飞机由机库运到飞行甲板上。11时15分，清理跑道，拖车把飞机拉到跑道起点，刹车。11 时25分，甲板阻力板打开，舰载机发动机点火，保持转速70%。11时28分许，舰载机刹车松开，加速至最 大推力，飞机滑跃离开甲板，顺利升空。”

translation:

10:55 -- plane is moved from hanger to deck
11:15 -- deck is cleaned and tractor moved the plane to the launch position
11:25 -- blast diverter plate is raised, engine started and kept at 70% of max rpm
11:28 -- brake is released. accelerate to max thrust. the plane lift off the deck and successfully airborne.

next a video of a landing an a take-off

then a video or pic of a carrier task force with FFGs and DDGs in the escort

then a video of the CV-16 loaded with aircraft!! Nice!!

Originally Posted by jobjed

You're saying that Russia > China due to their experience with carriers, thus whatever tempo the Russians have, the Chinese can NOT overtake. You're completely discounting the fact that countries CAN overtake. Based on your logic, the West should still be behind China in technology because China was ahead for 15 of the past 20 centuries. He's saying China has already overtaken Russia in so many areas that whatever Russia is doing can not be used as a benchmark for Chinese operations.

Again let me say that I am glad that the PLAN has made their entry into the world of aircraft carriers. However I did not say that the PLAN would never overtake the Russians. Only a fool would place limitations like "never would overtake" on any culture in the world

The Russians in my opinion are stagnant in their carrier operations. They still after all these years have not adopted what would seem to be common sense measures that would increase the effectiveness of their operations. The PLAN on the other hand seems to be committed to following what works, and what works is US Navy carrier operations

How this will work out remains to be seen but the inherent strengths and limitations of the PLAN will influence how effective they become in the future as they move into carrier operations in a big way. Already the PLAN can see the limitations of the Russian methods and are moving to put their own mark on things

Originally Posted by vesicles

So... what are you going to say then if they stay loose and simply walk around the chopper even in a staged photo shoot? I would imagine your comments would be something along the line of "if they can't even strike a pose for a staged photo shoot, they seem not to have the discipline needed to accomplish the highly collaborative CV deck operation." In other words, no matter what they do, they won't look good.

A staged photo shooting is like: "staged". As you correctly mentioned, it is a parade. no one expects anyone to march in an actual combat as they would in a parade. common sense?

No no no!. You misunderstood again. What is being said here is that stiff staged type operations on the deck are the enemy of the fluid dance a crew must do to move in and out or taxing aircraft and equipment on the deck.

On the Russian carriers, the crew moves to the island during landings and takeoffs. Instead of having a shooter launch the aircraft from the deck position, the Russians shooter launches the aircraft from their version of Pri-Fly. Compare the two pictures below to understand what I am talking about. Since the PLAN is operating a carrier with a Russian style system, they will have to make radical changes in how aircraft are recovered and launch. That is if they want to become competent in carrier operations



Note how the shooter in the Russian carrier system is launching the aircraft by pressing a button in the island

In the system used by western carriers its a two step process where the shooter gives the launch signal to the crewman in the bubble to launch the aircraft.





The Russian system is safer for crewmen from a deck safety standpoint, but in my opinion, the American system while more dangerous due to the close proximity of men and aircraft is more efficient. I wonder which system will the PLAN chose? ? Using the Russian system the PLAN could get up to speed quicker.

So the choice is between safety vs efficiency.

Okay, to clear up some confusion.

Your points have shifted completely.


Comparing what you've just said:

Originally Posted by NikeX

Again let me say that I am glad that the PLAN has made their entry into the world of aircraft carriers. However I did not say that the PLAN would never overtake the Russians. Only a fool would place limitations like "never would overtake" on any culture in the world

The Russians in my opinion are stagnant in their carrier operations. They still after all these years have not adopted what would seem to be common sense measures that would increase the effectiveness of their operations. The PLAN on the other hand seems to be committed to following what works, and what works is US Navy carrier operations

How this will work out remains to be seen but the inherent strengths and limitations of the PLAN will influence how effective they become in the future as they move into carrier operations in a big way. Already the PLAN can see the limitations of the Russian methods and are moving to put their own mark on things

Originally Posted by NikeX

No no no!. You misunderstood again. What is being said here is that stiff staged type operations on the deck are the enemy of the fluid dance a crew must do to move in and out or taxing aircraft and equipment on the deck.

To what you started out saying:

Originally Posted by NikeX

Question: How long do YOU think the PLAN will take to become competent in carrier operations? Even today the most recent carrier operator, the Russian Navy, is still operating at a very low tempo of carrier air operations. Now considering that the PLAN is using a re-furbished Russian carrier, and has zero experience at operating aircraft at sea, why would the PLAN somehow leapfrog the Russian Navy?

Or are you going to trot out that business about "second mover advantage"?

To define terms I am saying a tempo baseline of at least 10 flights per day. Flights would be defined as 10 take offs and landings per day light cycle. It is unlikely that the PLAN will attempt night operations in the years ahead.

Remember: The PLAN is completely without experience or tradition in carrier operations. Their internal structure is more rigid and more formal than Western procedures and with far less on-the-job training, especially for enlisted personnel.

What is your best estimate when the PLAN can carry out this tempo?

Of course people are going to "misunderstand"... . You went from listing reasons why the Chinese would never "leapfrog" the Russians, now to saying, "Of course they can, I'm just asking which path they'll take".


Point is, you based your some of reasoning on seeing "stiff" and "staged" operations, and others here are just saying the images you've seen are, "stiff" and, "staged" because they're just PR shots.

I appreciate that you've at least clarified your ideas.

Originally Posted by kyanges

Okay, to clear up some confusion.

Your points have shifted completely.


Comparing what you've just said:



To what you started out saying:


Of course people are going to "misunderstand"... . You went from listing reasons why the Chinese would never "leapfrog" the Russians, now to saying, "Of course they can, I'm just asking which path they'll take".


Point is, you based your some of reasoning on seeing "stiff" and "staged" operations, and others here are just saying the images you've seen are, "stiff" and, "staged" because they're just PR shots.

I appreciate that you've at least clarified your ideas.

I think it's pretty clear that he was saying the Russians are ahead of China now due to their experience at it and that China can catch up to Russians in the future. There is a huge difference between present and future.

Originally Posted by kyanges

Okay, to clear up some confusion.

Your points have shifted completely.


Comparing what you've just said:



To what you started out saying:


Of course people are going to "misunderstand"... . You went from listing reasons why the Chinese would never "leapfrog" the Russians, now to saying, "Of course they can, I'm just asking which path they'll take".


Point is, you based your some of reasoning on seeing "stiff" and "staged" operations, and others here are just saying the images you've seen are, "stiff" and, "staged" because they're just PR shots.

I appreciate that you've at least clarified your ideas.

I hope I shed some light on the situation. To be quite frank I have no idea which path the PLAN will chose to follow

Originally Posted by NikeX

I hope I shed some light on the situation. To be quite frank I have no idea which path the PLAN will chose to follow

Not so long ago, you were expecting a lot of BOOM. And not so long ago, you said that the lack of creativity and rigidness of the Chinese people will make sure they will never succeed (borderline racism).

So what happened?

Originally Posted by NikeX

Again let me say that I am glad that the PLAN has made their entry into the world of aircraft carriers. However I did not say that the PLAN would never overtake the Russians. Only a fool would place limitations like "never would overtake" on any culture in the world

The Russians in my opinion are stagnant in their carrier operations. They still after all these years have not adopted what would seem to be common sense measures that would increase the effectiveness of their operations. The PLAN on the other hand seems to be committed to following what works, and what works is US Navy carrier operations

How this will work out remains to be seen but the inherent strengths and limitations of the PLAN will influence how effective they become in the future as they move into carrier operations in a big way. Already the PLAN can see the limitations of the Russian methods and are moving to put their own mark on things

All I would add to that is not to sell the Russians short, to discount them because they are having money problems would be a foolish mistake for the US or China, the bear may be hibernating, but he is in no way toothless, while I agree that their Naval ops continue to suffer, I woiuld remind you that the cold war era saw lots of "fun". If the US elects a new president, the US economy will rebound and pull the others along behind it, if we do not, it will be four more years of living in the economic gulage, suffering yes, rebound no. All you have to do is watch the Russian aerial displays, those guys are something else.

I am quite certain that the PLAN will find some median level of operations, certainly at some point in the near future jumping ahead of the Russians, at least for the near term. I just read the rumor of a supposed aircraft launch from the Liaoling, this will mark the beginning of a race to catch then surpass the Russians, but remember the Russians have lots of years of ship handlling in very poor weather conditions, that in itself contributes to low activity levels, but some very real world experience. So I repeat do not sell them short. I would say the same thing for the PLAN, they are cashed up for the interim although it is obvious that they are currently being pinched a little themselves.

On this thread recent posts make it sound like carrier operations in the future will be a 3 way competition among the US, Russia, and China. Besides from seconding the ready admissions that the US lead is untouchable by any other country, I just want to post a friendly reminder that despite the Liaoning's tonnage China has merely just joined the single carrier club (of which some members like France are much more active and adept at using their carriers than others like Thailand).

There are also some of the same plus additional countries that are active and adept with LHDs which can easily become VTOL carriers.

I would say China's carrier ops will probably rank above the 'trophy ship' countries but will take a while before it matches or surpasses those of any of the real carrier operators.