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The Japanese have very advanced development in EMALS. Perhaps we should talk to them.... *ha*
This is a discussion on PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos within the Navy forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Jeff Head Steam is easier because all of those problems you talk about have been known and ...
Senior Member
While you are right that PLAN has not developed an EMALS, PLAN isn't known to have developed a steam catapult either. Thus, the argument that steam catapult is easier applies to nations such as US, but not so for China.Originally Posted by Jeff Head
As for your statement that EMALS having huge requirements, there is no proof of this. It is merely a repeat of an opinion rather than bringing up a new premise. You also drew a correlation between development of an EMALS and development of a new reactor for the Ford class. The counter arguments can be summed up as "correlation does not imply causation":
- More power from the reactor has many use, including powering those phase array radars and extra equipments for automation on the Ford class. The extra power could also be used to boost the ship's top speed. More power from the reactor does not indicate EMALS requires more power.
- Extra power when used in the catapults could achieve performance gain, such as launching of the heavier F-35 over F-18E/F. It does not indicate EMALS is less efficient.
- Design of an EMALS and design of the new reactor occurs together because both are components of the next-generation carrier. It does not mean EMALS need a new reactor to function.
Furthermore, EMALS does not require nuclear propulsion, since the Queen Elizabeth class also intended to feature an EMALS.
Easily? Proof please. I'm not questioning the fact that steam has been used to power catapults. I am questioning your liberal use of "easily" when referring to the steam catapult. If steam is so great, USN would have retained them. Let's look at some quotes.
From Global Securities:
The launch engine is capable of a high thrust density, as shown by the half scale model that demonstrated 1322 psi over its cross section. This is compared to the relatively low 450 psi of the steam catapult.From Wikipedia:The EMALS offers the increased energy capability necessary to launch the next generation of carrier based aircraft. The steam catapult is presently operating near its design limit of approximately 95 MJ. The EMALS has a delivered energy capability of 122 MJ, a 29% increase.
From Wikipedia:EMALs would be more energy efficient on nuclear powered aircraft carriers and would alleviate some of the dangers posed by using pressurized steam.
Other advantages includes... reducing the need for energy-intensive desalination.That 5-percent is also stated in the paper by Doyle, Samuel, Conway and Klimowski in a paper called "Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System - EMALS", where they said:The EMALS will also be more efficient than the 5-percent efficiency of steam catapults.
The steam catapults are also highly... inefficient (4-6%)
Last edited by Engineer; 07-18-2012 at 09:48 PM.
New Member
The Japanese have very advanced development in EMALS. Perhaps we should talk to them.... *ha*
Member
May be, the exVaryag will use electricity to produce steam for the cats?
Junior Member
Wait, what?!
Junior Member
From CDF
She's starting to strecth her legs...
Member
I'm confused. I thought she had the white deck lines extended to the bow.So if that is true , how can this be recent pics? Or is the claim about the lines false? There seems to be some ambiguity.
Senior Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos
Rounding first base I suspect, they will be putting the hammer on her now, you can bet they've done their home work on carrier quals, it will not be USNs gold standard I suspect, but a much more realistic real world application of standards and performance. While those familiar with the USN will likely be inclined to discount it, I would encourage a more practical approach, this gal has come a long way in a very short period of time, and while we may be inclined to dismiss her basic capabilities, she is still the PLANs flagship project and a serious status upgrade for the Sino Navy! I wouldn't be disappointed if the Air Wing doesn't arrive on this cruise, as it is all about the ship, the Air Wing will have their day, let the sailors have theirs! I think you will agree she has made quite a "Splash" in her neighborhood!
From CDF
She's starting to strecth her legs...
Senior Member
When the Dutch aircraft carrier Karel Doorman was acquired from the British ( she was the Colossus class HMS Venerable ) she spent from July 1955 to June 1958 at a shipyard near Rotterdam to fit her for the use of jet fighters ( Hawker Seahawk ) - angle deck, steam cats instead of hydraulic cats &c. She then served until 1968, except for several lengthy yard periods, and was then sold to Argentina.
@Miragedriver: photographs of her and her aircraft, but also of Rear Admiral Karel Doorman and a load of irrelevant pictures, including ex-Varyag in the Bosporus, are to be found at karel doorman - Google zoeken
Last edited by delft; 07-19-2012 at 09:42 AM.
Junior Member
Delft,
Did Karel Doorman (Q81) flew Any E-1 Trackers or similar AEW aircraft off its decks?
Jedi Master
The Dutch Navy had a sqn of ASW S-2 Trackers, but no Tracers (the AEW variant). Prior to the arrival of the Trackers, Grumman Avengers were operated and some of these had AN/APS-20 radars fitted (the same as the AEW Skyraider and the British Gannet AEW3 had), ostensibly for ASW work but giving an inherent AEW capability. The French were in a similar position, their Clemenceau class embarked a sqn of Bregeut Alize turbo prop planes for ASW but also used them like the British Gannets for AEW work. The Trackers had a retractable radome under the aft fuselage with a surface search radar inside, supposedly to detect submarine periscopes, but these could and did detect low flying aircraft and surface ships as well, though how well they managed is another matter given the technology of the day.
"Without Organic Airpower at Sea (Aircraft Carriers), you don't have a Navy, You have a Coast Guard!"
Senior Member
She did not use the E-1 Tracer. This was only used by USN according to wikipedia: Grumman E-1 Tracer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Dutch naval air service did use TBF-3W Avengers as well as the corresponding torpedo bombers, and these will have been used on Q81 as the main purpose of the ship was ASW. So I don't think they got around to looking for aircraft with these radar planes.
Junior Member
thanks Obi Wan Russell and Delft, Tracer is what I meant.
So actually TBF-3W was used, huh. thanks.
Jedi Master
If enemy aircraft passed under the radar, they would be noticed and most certainly not ignored! The Avengers with the radars searched for any threat to their task group. Primarily submarines, but also anything else 'of interest'. For years many publications missed the French Alize's AEW capability, but it was always there and frequently practiced. It was probably played down publically to mislead the Soviets as to their true capabilities. Also remember that when the RN had to reinstate it's shipboard AEW mission in 82, the radar chosen for the Sea Kings was the Searchwater set from the Nimrod, and ASW radar from an AEW aircraft, and a spritual successor to the AN/APS-20.
"Without Organic Airpower at Sea (Aircraft Carriers), you don't have a Navy, You have a Coast Guard!"
Senior Member
Alize's were sold to India. How would its performance be kept from the Soviets?
Junior Member
I don't think these things were truly designed as "ASW Radar" per se.
true, one bench mark they are measured for is the detection range for a periscope in a rough sea. but they are also widely used for surface search, i.e. designed to comb large ocean area for targets airbone or surface.
the early AN/APS-20 after all lacks the necessary signal processing capability to reject much of sea scatter. and prob would be useless against persiscopes in all but the calmest seas. they are prob used to comb for surfaced submarines
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