PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

Originally Posted by kroko

keep in mind that, unlike j-20/ASAT tech, the USN has acess to china´s SSN noise tech, just as they have acess to russia´s SSN noise tech. And the obvious reason being that, by sailing in the sea they generate noise that is monitored and evaluated by other navies.

And how exactly did the US get to monitor Chinese sub 'noise tech' (I think you mean noise signature)? As per the USN, the PLAN nuke subs hardly ever leave Chinese waters.

And before we hear the typical Tom Clancy-esq fantasy fiction about US subs' invincibility and suggestions that they covertly entered Chinese waters to get the 'money shot', one should consider real world concerns.

Firstly, the PLAN decide when and where they send their attack subs. If they were seriously concerned that USN subs might be sneaking into Chinese waters for a peek, it would be easy for them to set up a welcoming committee with their SSKs waiting and a nuke sub acting as bait.

This is not like sneaking a SEAL team ashore where no-one is looking. This is running the teeth of the PLAN's ASW gauntlet where the PLAN decide, and when they decide.

Consider the real world consequences if a USN nuke sub was caught inside Chinese waters. That sub and its crew will be impounded or destroyed if they tried to flee. The US would be forced to make a formal apology if it wants the crew or sub back. It will be a massive black eye for the US politically and militarily either way, as the Chinese will probably plunder the sub's secrets and send it back to the US in pieces if they send it back at all.

The consequences are so grave I seriously doubt the US would risk it, no matter how confident they felt about their odds.

That is probably also why the US bothers to send monitoring ships so close to Chinese waters, and also why the Chinese get so annoyed when they do get that close.

IMO, the reason that they gave type 095 its "noise rating" is due to the fact that they saw type 093 evolution compared to type 091, made some assumptions, and after that made an estimation. They know that china has a big gap, and dont have reason to believe that china can bridge it anytime soon. Not without massive transfers of russian SSN tech.

Have you also considered that this could be deliberate misinformation released by the USN to mask how much they truly know about the PLAN's capabilities?

Bare in mind that everyone involved in the drafting will know that the report would ultimately be released and made public. It is entirely possible that the USN would want to trick the PLAN into thinking they had a worse idea than they actually did. Maybe to tempt the PLAN to be more advanturous with their new SSNs and maybe actually expose them enough so that a USN sub could get a good signature.

When you consider that PLAN SSKs are widely accepted to be just as good, if not much better than the Kilos they bought off the Russians, which itself is recognized as a very capable sub, you realize that there is very little reason why Chinese nuke subs should be so much worse.

The only difference is the power plant. It is possible that Chinese nuclear reactors are not very quiet, but that would be the only bottleneck if there was one. As soon as they get the reactor noise level down, the rest of the sub should benefit from the same kind of technology as that which makes their SSKs so quiet.

That is a breakthrough that could be made at any moment, especially when you read about all the advancements China has made in its civilian nuclear reactor field.

That is why Chinese tech levels tend to jump so quickly compared to the speed those technologies were pioneered.

Unlike the pioneers, the Chinese have a pretty clear idea of what they need to do and how to get there, and it is often only a few key bottlenecks that are holding them back.

They may really be at 80s level of noise signature now, but as soon as they cracked the bottleneck, they might jump instantly to 2000s levels in a few short years or months, just like how they are with turbofan engine technology, radar technology, hell, every major technology you can name.

The report you cited seemed to think that it will take the Chinese just as long to play catch up as it took to pioneer the tech in the first place.

That is another obvious logical fallacy, and together with the obvious factual errors, casts serious doubts as to the relability of the report and the validity of its conclusions.

Overhead view of refurbished Shi Lang before it left Dalian port


Bird's-eye view of refurbished Shi Lang


Distant view of Shi Lang

[Note: Thank you to Bltizo and Jovian (3rd) for the pictures.]

Originally Posted by Bltizo

Finally, so this is what the finished varyag looks like from up top. I imagine these were taken before it left port (ie, it hasn't returned yet)

But the drydock is empty so it can be prepared for Varyag.

@plawolf, to play devil's advocate one could claim the chinese are so behind in noise reduction that the US doesn't need subs in the immediate vicinity to detect them.

Kind of like how there were claims western navies could detect soviet subs in their homewaters a thousand kilometers away (or something crazy like that).

If that is the case, why bother sending sonar monitoring ships right up to the edge of Chinese waters? And why would the Chinese get so annoyed if they didn't have any secrets to protect?

Hell, why would the PLAN bother to build so many 093s if they were really so bad?

Originally Posted by plawolf

Hell, why would the PLAN bother to build so many 093s if they were really so bad?

For a curtain of noise. And what is behind this curtain?


By the way, the submarine-talk sets a curtain of off-topic.

These will be my first attempt in posting image here in this forum:






The images were processed by first stretching out the histrogram of the original. Then it is a matter of adjusting the white balancing . I found software like Picasa 3 has a quick tool (highlights and shadows settings) for doing the first part. Can't get rid of any more haze; I guess that must be the place is fogg?

Thank you Blitzo for the original (first two).

I believe those pictures were taken off a domestic Chinese passenger plane. Flying from Beijing to Dalian I believe.

I myself have taken that route a few times, the first time I saw the carrier distantly and couldn't believe they were flying that close to it, so couldn't get a picture in time.

The second time I was seated on the wrong side on the plane. Although I did see a sole Su27 parked in a hanger at Dalian airport, so it wasn't a total loss.

Offtopic but are tphuang and crobato still active here.? Didnt see a single post of theirs in this thread. Cheers.

Originally Posted by plawolf

And how exactly did the US get to monitor Chinese sub 'noise tech' (I think you mean noise signature)? As per the USN, the PLAN nuke subs hardly ever leave Chinese waters.

That is probably also why the US bothers to send monitoring ships so close to Chinese waters, and also why the Chinese get so annoyed when they do get that close.

Have you also considered that this could be deliberate misinformation released by the USN to mask how much they truly know about the PLAN's capabilities?

Bare in mind that everyone involved in the drafting will know that the report would ultimately be released and made public. It is entirely possible that the USN would want to trick the PLAN into thinking they had a worse idea than they actually did. Maybe to tempt the PLAN to be more advanturous with their new SSNs and maybe actually expose them enough so that a USN sub could get a good signature.

type 093 cant remain in dock or territorial waters forever. Eventually it will sail farther away, and thats where other navies will pick the noise level. The USA did this in the cold war. Even if it isnt a spying SSN, it will be microphones in the water. Believe me, the USN wil find a way to get it.
About USN deceit, thats pure conjuncture.

Originally Posted by plawolf

The only difference is the power plant. It is possible that Chinese nuclear reactors are not very quiet, but that would be the only bottleneck if there was one. As soon as they get the reactor noise level down, the rest of the sub should benefit from the same kind of technology as that which makes their SSKs so quiet.

That is a breakthrough that could be made at any moment, especially when you read about all the advancements China has made in its civilian nuclear reactor field.

That is why Chinese tech levels tend to jump so quickly compared to the speed those technologies were pioneered.

Unlike the pioneers, the Chinese have a pretty clear idea of what they need to do and how to get there, and it is often only a few key bottlenecks that are holding them back.

They may really be at 80s level of noise signature now, but as soon as they cracked the bottleneck, they might jump instantly to 2000s levels in a few short years or months, just like how they are with turbofan engine technology, radar technology, hell, every major technology you can name.

The report you cited seemed to think that it will take the Chinese just as long to play catch up as it took to pioneer the tech in the first place.

That is another obvious logical fallacy, and together with the obvious factual errors, casts serious doubts as to the relability of the report and the validity of its conclusions.

I also think that the big issue is the nuclear powerplant tech. But i dont think that the problem is that simple. Naval nuclear reactors are different from land nuclear reactors. they have size, weight, and noise requirements that land ones dont have. Besides, no one will sell china that tech. So it has to make a bigger effort to evolve in that area.

they will evolve of course. The big question is, can they evolve fast enough to close the gap with other powers? remember other nations are evolving too.

Originally Posted by getready

Offtopic but are tphuang and crobato still active here.? Didnt see a single post of theirs in this thread. Cheers.

tphuang still is but more so in the escort ships thread.. as for crobato..he's missing in action for some time now.

Knock off off topic comments on Chinese nuclear subs. We have a thread for that.

Originally Posted by Intrepid

For a curtain of noise. And what is behind this curtain?


By the way, the submarine-talk sets a curtain of off-topic.

It works like the marine form of ECM then. Actually, a miniature submarine/decoy could do a better job at much less cost.

Btw, the submarine's active sonar will need to be turned on for weapons guidance. The sonar pings and the noise generrated by the weapons launch can be used by the targetted submarine to launch a counter attack. In this way, the submarine will have no choice but to finally reveal itself in order to fire the first shot, just like in a gun battle.

Chinese press anounced that varyag´s refitting process will continue after its return from sea trials. Does that mean that they will add further stuff into varyag ? I was thinking that varyag was ready in terms of equipment.