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PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

This is a discussion on PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos within the Navy forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by cmb=1968 Do you think the US navy will get a working design for a EMAL before the ...

  1. #2056
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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb=1968 View Post
    Do you think the US navy will get a working design for a EMAL before the Ford gets to forgone to refit with steam cats?
    Yes, they've already announced they will. It seemed for a short while they would not but now it appears the EMAL will be in place on CVN-78.
    Last edited by bd popeye; 05-20-2009 at 02:08 PM.
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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by tphuang View Post
    there is not a chance that PLAN would spend 70 billion yuan on Varyag. They are just too cheap for that.

    Any comments on the thing lying in the dock .
    according to Mashup they are elevator
    May.20 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng) — Elevators? yes, three lifts machine were installed beside the Yaryag Carrier, whicn is being repaired in Dalian ShipYard. This change may indicate that the overhaul of Varyag for PLA Navy Aviation Troops Training is being speeded and some required systems, such as electronic devices, power system and so no, will be added in this once abandoned by Russia.

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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik_2000 View Post
    according to Mashup they are elevator
    May.20 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng) — Elevators? yes, three lifts machine were installed beside the Yaryag Carrier, whicn is being repaired in Dalian ShipYard. This change may indicate that the overhaul of Varyag for PLA Navy Aviation Troops Training is being speeded and some required systems, such as electronic devices, power system and so no, will be added in this once abandoned by Russia.
    I think that they may be just common ship deck parts lying on the dock (note theres a lot of cargo ship parts in that dock). they seem to be too big to be varyag elevators. And varyag has only two elevators, not three. And they really dont appear to be elevators.

    Apart of that, this author implies that China requires russia to abandon their equipment in order to china to add them to its ship. Clearly this article is rubbish.
    Last edited by kroko; 05-20-2009 at 05:00 PM.

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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik_2000 View Post
    according to Mashup they are elevator
    May.20 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng) Elevators? yes, three lifts machine were installed beside the Yaryag Carrier, whicn is being repaired in Dalian ShipYard. This change may indicate that the overhaul of Varyag for PLA Navy Aviation Troops Training is being speeded and some required systems, such as electronic devices, power system and so no, will be added in this once abandoned by Russia.
    i'm just wondering when did China Defense Mashup became credible?

    Anyhow, he clearly wasn't talking about the circled part, which I don't think is catapult, but considered that as a possibility. I simply don't know what it is.

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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by bd popeye View Post
    Nope. They've never had a steam cat..how in the heck are they going to have a EMAL catapult?? The USN is just not getting one(EMAL catapult) to work after years of R & D.
    Nothing related to the Varyag specifically, but why the heck do they need a steam catapult if they want to build a electrical-magnetic one? You kept on repeating this, but you don't show any evidence that the two operate on the same principles other than their identical end result. Have you considered that USN has to do R&D because building a EM catapult means starting from scatch?

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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Nothing related to the Varyag specifically, but why the heck do they need a steam catapult if they want to build a electrical-magnetic one? You kept on repeating this, but you don't show any evidence that the two operate on the same principles other than their identical end result. Have you considered that USN has to do R&D because building a EM catapult means starting from scatch?
    you need to walk before you can run. Having a steam catapult is definitely better than not having one. You need something to learn how to use catapult.

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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by tphuang View Post
    you need to walk before you can run. Having a steam catapult is definitely better than not having one. You need something to learn how to use catapult.
    True definetly true but do you need a steam catapult to develop EMAL? Like, I remember seeing a docu one time (Think it was "Big, Bigger, Biggest") about the evolution of aircraft carriers which talk of the first catapult being hydraulically operated, do you need to have a hydraulic one to get to a steam one then to an EMAL one or can you jump generations?
    I think it's the fact that it's hard to comprehend that China can somehow build EMAL when the US still has not had one on one of it's carriers (which is fair)which creates doubt, but I personally think the Chinese hasn't yet built EMAL.
    But do you have to have a steam catapult to know how to operate a catapult then to refine the system to EMAL?
    Last edited by Bltizo; 05-20-2009 at 11:58 PM.

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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by tphuang View Post
    you need to walk before you can run. Having a steam catapult is definitely better than not having one. You need something to learn how to use catapult.
    What you have described there is the operation aspect of a catapult, but it does not show how having a steam catapult is a prerequisit to building an electrial-magnetic version. And as far as operation aspect is concerned, maintaining huge wires that transport high current will be a whole lot different from maintaining high pressure steam pipes. So even if one has steam catapult, that does not guarantee success in the operation of an electrial-magnetic version.

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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Bltizo View Post
    True definetly true but do you need a steam catapult to develop EMAL? Like, I remember seeing a docu one time (Think it was "Big, Bigger, Biggest") about the evolution of aircraft carriers which talk of the first catapult being hydraulically operated, do you need to have a hydraulic one to get to a steam one then to an EMAL one or can you jump generations?
    I believe that's pneumatic instead of hydraulic.

    Chinese don't have any experience of launching a plane off the deck of the ship before. Must they first master the launch of WWI era fighters, then master the launch of WWII era fighters, then start experimenting with catapults, before finally experiment with launching jet aircraft?

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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    no, they could cooperate with Argentinia or Brazil (Argentinia doesn't have an Aircarft Carrier today, but used one and the teached the Brailians, the Brazil Naval Air Force is pretty new and use the Aircarft Carrier "Sao Paolo")

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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    it does not show how having a steam catapult is a prerequisit to building an electrial-magnetic version. And as far as operation aspect is concerned, maintaining huge wires that transport high current will be a whole lot different from maintaining high pressure steam pipes.
    This is very true. I've had this discussion before here (I mostly lurk, but stick my nose in occasionally ).

    The U.S. and China are coming at the problem from entirely different sides. The British developed steam catapults when that really the only practical technology to use, and the use of steam was much more common in general. The U.S. got the technology from the Brits and kept using them for so long because, for them, the technology is mature and well understood. They've worked out all the kinks.

    For the Chinese developing a catapult today, steam wouldn't make any sense. High power ultra-capacitors are in common use, and lots of them are manufactured in China. If they have to climb a learning curve anyway, it makes more sense for them to climb the EM learning curve rather than steam.

    Times have changed and it's a lot easier now to design a catapult with high power electronics than to mess around with boilers and high-pressure tubing.

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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Nothing related to the Varyag specifically, but why the heck do they need a steam catapult if they want to build a electrical-magnetic one? You kept on repeating this, but you don't show any evidence that the two operate on the same principles other than their identical end result.
    tphuang stated;
    you need to walk before you can run. Having a steam catapult is definitely better than not having one. You need something to learn how to use catapult.
    Have you considered that USN has to do R&D because building a EM catapult means starting from scatch?
    Yes. Of course . The EMAL is a whole new system. However in the USN favor the USN has the basic rudimentary operation of steam catapults down to a science.

    The USN is having difficulty making the EMAL catapult work properly. But recently they announced that CVN-78 would have EMAL cats.
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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    Quote Originally Posted by bd popeye View Post
    Yes. Of course . The EMAL is a whole new system. However in the USN favor the USN has the basic rudimentary operation of steam catapults down to a science.
    What the USN likes to do has no relevance on how the Chinese should approach their problems. Like I have pointed out in one of my previous posts, in terms of operation, maintaining an electrical-magnetic system will be entire different than maintaining a steam catapult.

    If you meant operation as in operation above deck, the Chinese will have to learn that from scratch anyway. Operating a steam catapult first won't make life any easier for them. So if they chose to do so, there is nothing that prevents them to go for an up-to-date system rather than an out-dated system.
    Last edited by Engineer; 05-21-2009 at 10:01 AM.

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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    What the USN likes to do has no relevance on how the Chinese should approach their problems.
    Really? I guess your correct in a sense. But ... the PLAN has zero experience in operating aircraft carriers. If they have have some sort of new approach so be it.

    Like I have pointed out in one of my previous posts, in terms of operation, maintaining an electrical-magnetic system will be entire different than maintaining a steam catapult.
    True..And they have yet to operate the basic steam cat yet.

    So if they chose to do so, there is nothing that prevents them to go for an up-to-date system rather than an out-dated system.
    If the PLAN feels it can operate an EMAL cat so be it. I have yet to see anything of any actual R & D on the PLAN EMAL cat.

    The USN operates 44 "outdated" steam catapults at sea constantly with outstanding success. And the rest of the Worlds navies operate a total of 4 US built catapults catapults on occasion. So it's not yet outdated in my opinion.

    If you meant operation as in operation above deck, the Chinese will have to learn that from scratch anyway.
    True..as I've pointed out many times in the past it will take several years for the PLAN to be proficient in safe CV operations.
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    Re: Latest Varyag Info and Photos

    The creators of these two Chinese threads think the Varyag is getting catapults based on the evidence shown in photos below. The bottom picture is an American catapult for comparison.

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