PLAN Carrier Operations..News, Videos & Photos

Originally Posted by NikeX

What we are talking about here is the total carrier operations package. And of that package take offs and landings are but a small part. Once aircraft land on the deck they must move around that deck. They must be armed and serviced. They must move about without running into each other. And the aircraft and deck gear cannot move about efficiently without the assistance of a trained deck crew. Training a deck crew is something that is handed down from experienced crewmen to inexperienced crewmen. You learn by doing with your experienced peers critiquing your every move and offering advice. And if you are unable to perform in the demanding environment of deck operations you are removed from the position because a failure to perform to standards endangers everyone on deck and I might add it can endanger the boat.

The margin for error is none.

This is why deck operations have been described as a dance or ballet to where men and machine interact in close proximity on the razor's edge of danger. Just watching the various hand gestures themselves are a thing of beauty to where each movement has a precise meaning and men interact like fingers on a hand.

The PLAN will have to develop their own procedures for this tight integration by jumping in and just doing it. There will be no shortcuts. If you sleepwalk on the flight deck there is a good chance you will die or cause someone else to die.

I think you are missing what others are saying.

the prime example that one often hold in these comparison with PLAN carrier operations is soviet navy and the time it took them.

others have reminded you that soviet navy underwent considerable turmoil while trying to mature their carrier ops.

obviously those who are running the show in PLAN got their stuff together on this part, judging from the depth of prep and training facilities that gets thrown-up.

no one said it was easy.

but people in china runing the show may not "get it" as much as you do, but so what. they think "it can't be harder than launch a man into orbit and space walk" so they go out there and do it. fearless.

Just like the father and grand fathers before you who did it on the US navy carriers. some of them die because of accidents. those that survive, learn.

with out fear is an advantage sometimes.

.....but it can't be harder than launch a man into orbit and space walk.

I am afraid that it is. Remember the Chinese had the assistance of the Soviet Union in developing their manned space program. Even today the Chinese use the Soyuz capsule design and Russian spacesuits as their baseline designs for manned space flight. Of course the Chinese have made their improvements but the basic designs are Russian

In carrier operations the Russians cannot help China because the Russians themselves have never mastered carrier operations. They are of no use to Chinese air operations at sea. China will have to master these things themselves. And that will take a great deal of time.

Originally Posted by NikeX

I am afraid that it is. Remember the Chinese had the assistance of the Soviet Union in developing their manned space program. Even today the Chinese use the Soyuz capsule design and Russian spacesuits as their baseline designs for manned space flight. Of course the Chinese have made their improvements but the basic designs are Russian

In carrier operations the Russians cannot help China because the Russians themselves have never mastered carrier operations. They are of no use to Chinese air operations at sea. China will have to master these things themselves. And that will take a great deal of time.

dumb dumb,
1)
I think you forgot, that manned space program isn't just a capsul and some space suits.

Command and control, Man-rated Rockets, components, etc etc.

It is akin to saying chinese got a varyag shell from Russia and some fighter jets and now it has a carrier force.
Same type of thing that you accuse of others.

2) If you were actually read my post, you would understand that my point is not actually stating that "but it can't be harder than launch a man into orbit and space walk. " but the perception of it will allow them to have less fear.

you need to work on your reading comprehension skillz.

others have reminded you that soviet navy underwent considerable turmoil while trying to mature their carrier ops.

Would you say that the Soviet navy has managed after 40 years to mature their carrier operations?

obviously those who are running the show in PLAN got their shit together on this part, judging from the depth of prep and training facilities that gets thrown-up.

Can you point to examples that support your observations? Without a model of carrier operations to base the PLAN program on it seems that China is in the very early stages of trying to take aircraft to sea. Recall that the PLAN went to Brazil to try and see if their navy could provide some assistance in helping the PLAN develop carrier procedures. That has proved to be a dead end. What will be next?

Just like the father and grand fathers before you who did it on the US navy carriers. some of them die because of accidents. those that survive, learn.

And the PLAN will have to take the plunge and learn. Over time they will. The question is how much time will it take. Do you have an idea of the time that will be needed? I say decades.

What say you?

I think you forgot, that manned space program isn't just a capsul and some space suits.

This is interesting. Can you tell me how the Chinese manned space program differs from these attempts by the PLAN to develop carrier operations?

You should recall that China first got into the manned spacecraft business in 1968. That was over 40 years ago. Do you think that PLAN carrier operations will move any faster?

As the space race between the two superpowers reached its climax with the conquest of the Moon, Mao and Zhou Enlai decided on July 14, 1967 that the PRC should not be left behind, and started China's own crewed space program.[6] China's first spacecraft designed for human occupancy was named Shuguang-1 (曙光一号) in January 1968.[7] China's Space Medical Institute (航天医学工程研究所) was founded on April 1, 1968, and the Central Military Commission issued the order of starting the selection of astronauts.

i think both sides can agree that the takeoff/landings and associated carrier operations are difficult and dangerous. I guess the timeline for Plan to start doing that is hard to agree on.
but if we are not talking about the high frequency sorties the USN are doing, but just trying to practice what PLAN have learned beforehand by launching/landing just 1 light training jet on the real thing, i.e. babysteps, surely that can be done soon, say in the next few months?

i think both sides can agree that the takeoff/landings and associated carrier operations are difficult and dangerous. I guess the timeline for Plan to start doing that is hard to agree on.
but if we are not talking about the high frequency sorties the USN are doing, but just trying to practice what PLAN have learned beforehand by launching/landing just 1 light training jet on the real thing, i.e. babysteps, surely that can be done soon, say in the next few months?

It will be interesting to see when these babysteps take place. I wonder will the PLAN publish video of these first steps?

What we are talking about here is the total carrier operations package. And of that package take offs and landings are but a small part

NikeX I don't know what is your background.

Any one who ever design a plant, machinery, warship should know this.
When you finish your work you just don't run .First there is such thing as design document where you document every assumption you make, every calc that you do, Discussion of the result, and finally conclusion.
This one is intended for people with knowledge your peer, your boss for review, approval,create drawing, built the thing

Then you have to do the so called design manual this is intended for operating people who is not necessarily expert in the field but still has to operate machinery,plant, warship.

Those document are given to the client's operating people who in turn will distilled those information and create so called "operating procedure"
Lay it out step by step how to operate, maintain, service the equipment.
What is the hazard operation, How to deal with emergency,up normality etc
What is the most efficient mode of operation.etc

If the machinery is complicated sometime they build simulator an exact replica of the machine but non function. For the operator to play without endangering the plant, machinery or warship.Play different kind of upset, dangerous operation and how to deal with it

Now I bet that those designer of Varyag has created binder upon binder of manual. From those manual the PLAN create binders of operating procedure and built simulator to train their crew.
and Having LPD, and hundred of ship I bet they know thing or two how to deal with Ships! Granted that they may face unforeseen emergency but that is the name of the game.

In other word there is orderly information dissemination from the designer of the ship to the operation people

Originally Posted by NikeX

It will be interesting to see when these babysteps take place. I wonder will the PLAN publish video of these first steps?

They will - well, eventually.

Alright, this time is serious: when the whole carrier package is ready and deployed for the first time (for whatever reason that is), AND coincide some major celebration in China, then the CCTV Channel 7 would put together some documentary series for it.

That is by the usual practice in China.

Nominally that falls in the "5th" or "10th", so:
PLA celebrate its 85th anniversary this year but that's too soon for the carrier project;
2014 will be the 65th anniversary of the PRC so this will be closest possible date;
2015 will mark the conclusion of the 12th ""5-Year Plan", another possible date;
2019 will be the 70th anniversary of the PRC, and that's where I put my bet on.

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

I haven't seen anyone indicate that only the US can become competent.

The British, the Australians, the French, and the Japanese (although theirs ended in 1945) all operated major carriers through World War II, and several thereafter.

The UK continued in the 80s through recently with jump jets. The Australians stopped altogether, and the French have continued on until now. The Indians and the Argentines have both operated carriers in the post world war II era. The Italians are operating two now, the Spanish are operating two. Thailand has one. Korea and Japan are moving that way and Australia is building two more now. The UK will build two full deck carriers. Russia has a rich history since the 1970s with carriers culminating in the Kuznetsov which they operate now to this day, albeit at a low tempo. It's just expensive and not easy to master unless you do it a lot.

And yes, for all of those nations, the carrier deck is a dangerous place and remains so until this day.

But the fact is that the US is the standard. Why? Simply because they have been operating 12 or more carriers continuously for decades after World War II, and at the end of that war had dozens and dozens of carriers. The US spends more money practicing with their carriers than the rest of the world combined and though they hav gotten good at it...they still have accidents where people are innjured and killed. But the US does do it a lot...a whole lot.

China has now built and has a nice Kuznetsov class carrier, with their own twists, built and in trials. They are obviously intent on getting in the game. They intend to build more, even larger ones.

They will find out that carrier decks are dangerous and you just cannot get away from that...and undoubtedly, sadly, while learning all about it and developing their own operations and procedures, they will have accidents and personnel will be injured and lost.

I believe NikeX was simply indicating that there is really no way around this. it comes with the territory and they will not be able to avoid it.

No statement that they could not do it...simply that it will take time, it will be difficult, and it will be dangerous.

Sometimes the most dangerous of grounds breeds the best of men. Honestly I'd think/feel that carrier operations are excellent opportunity for China as a whole to trim up, lose those half-assed work ethics, and pay more attention to professional and true attitudes of true management and operations. I'm not saying that PLA sucks in management or organization, but when you have new toys, it maybe be different from anything you've had in the past, including how to use it. you'll then be forced to do nothing other than to humbly drop your ego and learn the arts from others who've mastered it if you want to operate the new asset properly. this is when knowledge shares and learning begins. The learning of American carrier culture, for example, led to the color-coded crew we're seeing now on the Chinese carrier decks. In time this culture will not only be what defines in this first Chinese carrier fleet, but gradually as PLAN management sees the merits of it, may adopt the sketch of this culture and begin to customize and apply so to other areas on where it suits. eventually it will spread, including to outside the military organizations and into other areas, such as governmental, infrastructural, civil, societal, etc. It may not be that the society ends up color-coded, but maybe a much stronger and stricter standards on professionalism and safety standards.

Originally Posted by NikeX

This is interesting. Can you tell me how the Chinese manned space program differs from these attempts by the PLAN to develop carrier operations?

You should recall that China first got into the manned spacecraft business in 1968. That was over 40 years ago. Do you think that PLAN carrier operations will move any faster?

Gee you are funny In those day China doesn't even have rice to eat let alone building manned space program. I don't know where you got this BS

China manned space start way way late. Though they lay the ground work with the launching of Dong Fang Hung that do nothing but circling around the earth and chiming the song

Dong Fang Hong I (simplified Chinese: 东方红一号; traditional Chinese: 東方紅一號; pinyin: Dōng Fāng Hóng Yīhào), also known as China 1[citation needed], was the People's Republic of China's first space satellite, launched successfully on April 24, 1970 (after one fail attempt on November 16, 1969) as part of the PRC's Dong Fang Hong space satellite program. At 173 kg (381 lb), it was heavier than the first satellites of other countries. The satellite carried a radio transmitter. It broadcast the song of the same name, Dōng Fāng Hóng or The East Is Red, which lasted for 26 days while in orbit.

Dong Fang Hong I (Red East 1) is China's first man-made satellite. It was developed under the direction of Qian Xuesen (Tsien Hsue-shen), dean at the Chinese Academy of Space Technology.

Chine will surely not discover that carrier decks are dangerous. They will have collected every movie and video about this work they could lay their hands on. Also they will increase the number of aircraft on deck and the frequency of launch and recovery operations gradually. And they have enough money to develop these operations in a timely fashion.

off topic

Example How long is the man exploration program in US . China does it in much faster time

it's been eight years since China sent it's first man into space. In the first 8 years of the US manned space program in the 1960s.. the US had 22 manned space mission including two flights to the moon.

off topic over

I for one will be happy if China starts real CV operations soon. That way we won't have to argue about this subject any longer. ..but on the other hand I'll have to eat my hat.

Ex-Varyag has left the port of Dalian saturday around 19:30 local time for the fourth test at sea the ship is escorted by maritime patrol Hai Xun 21 and a border police vessel CBHFJ. Lian Gang 33 is a towing vessel.

We see the trajectory of these four vessels with time on Plaform monitoring maritime AIS, Varyag has continued his way alone to 10:53 p.m. -