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Naval Helicopter thread

This is a discussion on Naval Helicopter thread within the Navy forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; We already have a thread similar to this about China's lack of naval helicopters, but I thought this one would ...

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    Naval Helicopter thread

    We already have a thread similar to this about China's lack of naval helicopters, but I thought this one would be more clear. We can discuss anything related to PLAN helicopters or naval helicopters that China exports.

    First piece of news:
    ????????????????????????????
    Z-8JH - the medical rescue variant of Z-8 is said to be in the middle of an exercise here.


    It mentions about training folding rotors and moving it into hangar.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    also, there has been a report recently about China starting a Z-8 AEW project and this is someone's thoughts on it

    海空神眼-直-8预警直升机与中国海军
    直-8, 中国, 海军, 直升机
    近日,在中国直升机研究所郭俊贤同志先进事迹中,首次出现了直-8预警直升机这个型号,预警直升机的研制意味着中国海军水面舰艇编队的超地平线警戒与目标指示能力将进入新 的高度。

    我们知道常规雷达有个先天的限制;地球曲率,所谓的地球曲率就是雷达电波以直线传播,而地球是球体,所以雷 达电波无法看到地平线以下的目标,而雷达到地平线的距离就是雷达的视线距离,其公式就是雷达高度的平方根和 目标高度的平方根的合乘4.12,以雷达高度为20米,目标高度为5米,雷达对目标的探测距离就是28公里 ,而如果雷达的高度为2000米,目标的高度不变,那么探测距离就可以提高到近200公里,可以提高7倍, 也就是所谓的站的高,看的远. 但海面上无法象陆地上那样找到这样的高山来架设雷达,而舰艇的桅杆的高度和承载都是有限的,而对于雷达来说 其探测距离又与雷达天线的尺寸有关,雷达天线尺寸越大,探测距离越远,但重量也更大,由此出现的问题就是不 能放在舰艇的高处,这里面最明显的例子就是神盾舰,每个阵面的质量超过5吨,衍生的问题就是采用四面盾的舰 艇无法放在高处,只好与上层建筑整合在一起,所以俺们通常听说到的固若金汤的神盾舰,其实其低 空探测/攻击能力比普通舰艇实际上是退步了。如伯克级的雷达阵面离水面不到20米,对于高度为5米的目标探测距离不 到28公里,相比较而言,现代级的顶板雷达离水面的距离接近40米,因此探测距离可以达到35公里,因此为 提高编队的区域空情控制能力,空中预警手段必不可少,但海上并没有机场让预警机起降,而航母也不是多数国家 能够负担的起的,实际上象美国尼米兹这样的超级核动力航母也只能操作象E-2C这样的相对较小的预警机,对于其他无力负担航母或者较大型航母的国家来说就需要另辟蹊径来解决空中预警 的问题。

    英国皇家海军在马岛海战中让对方屡屡从低空偷袭得手,决定利用直升机对起降场地限制小的缺点,研制出了海王 预警直升机,不过最初的海五预警直升机只装备了搜水对空/海搜索雷达,仅仅是个简单的空中雷达站,后期的型号海王AEW MK7装备了搜水2000雷达,该雷达工作在X波段的PD雷达,具有低空搜索、海面搜索、战斗机引导 及地/海面杂波背景下的小目标的快速搜索与识别,除了雷达外,海王AEW MK3还装备了IFF敌我识别器、电子战系统和 LINK-16数据链,MK7预警直升机对低空目标的探测距离为150公里,其机载任务可以将雷达与电子战系统的信息 融合在一起并在彩色多功能显示器上显示,其战术信息不但可以用于引导战斗机,还可以通过数据链传递给载舰, 用于提高水面编队的超水平线搜索能力,不过由于预警直升机由于数据处理能力有限,因此大部分信息还是通过数 据链传递回载舰,由后者的对空引导显控台进行战斗机的引导控制,有消息说皇家海军不但在现有的航母配备预警 直升机,在未来的伊丽莎白级大型航母的多功能海上任务系统也将采用以EH-101为平台的预警直升机。前苏联在研制库滋涅佐夫级航母的时候,采用跳台式起飞甲板替代原来的蒸汽弹射器 ,因此原来预定使用的AN-72预警机无法使用,因此研制了KA-31来解决编队的低空警戒问题,KA-31预警直升机战时可实施侦察、监视,并提供空中、地面和水面态势,向舰艇和地面指挥所传递目标情报,防护 舰艇免遭敌方空袭;和平时期,直升机可保障对国家空中陆地、海上边界及海上经济区、专属水域的监控,其配备 的是E-801无源相控阵雷达,工作在L波段,该雷达对小型的空中目标的探测距离为120公里,E 8 0 1 M系统包含彩色显示子系统。可以显示综合了战术信息的数字地图,雷达获得的信息通过数据链传递给 载舰。KA-31不但装备了俄罗斯海军,还提供给了印度海军,提高了其在印度洋上的目标探测能力。除了上述国家外,意大 利是另一个装备预警直升机的国家,其装备了配备了HEW-784预警雷达的EH-101预警直升机。

    对于目前的俺国海军来说,随着神盾舰和其他驱护舰的服役,已经形成了严密的编队防空作战体系,神盾舰配备的 有源相控阵雷达对于空中目标的最大搜索能力可以达到300公里左右,而舰载的HH-9型垂直发射中远程舰空导弹采用指令加惯导加末段主动雷达制导方式,最大射程在100公里左右,不过需要指 出的这些指标是对于中高空的目标,如果对于低空掠海反舰导弹其探测距离不足 30公里,同时由于HH-9采用的大弧形弹道,发射后需要向上爬升,因此扩大了最小射界,所以对于掠海目标主要由新型驱护舰上面的顶 板相控阵雷达和SA- N-12舰空负责,由于顶板采用双阵面形式,可以放在舰艇上层的高处,可以将对掠海导弹的水平线扩大到30公里 ,同时SA-N-12采用较大的火箭发动机和弧形弹道来维持导弹较大的能量,以便对付高机动性的目标,因此可以充分支持雷达 水平线的扩大。所以俺国海军现有的水面编队形式应该是神盾舰居中为编队提供中高空的空情掌握,而新型驱护舰 作为雷达哨舰前出到水平线附近,提供低空的空情警戒,这种做法虽然在一定程度缓解了编队低空空情掌握不足的 矛盾,但未从根本上来解决问题,主要问题在于其对低空目标的探测距离仍旧有限,为拦截系统提供的反应时间不 足,尤其是面对对方饱和攻击时的时候,新型驱护舰的目标照射雷达一侧各有2个,因此在对方用3枚以上导弹进 行攻击的时候就可能让对方有隙可趁。因此对于俺国海军来说的确需要一种快速的低空警戒手段来扩大编队的水平 线。在短期内无法装备航母来搭载预警机的情况下,发展预警直升机的确良是个捷径。

    目前国产的直升机只有直-8、9两种,后者由于机体较小,难以搭载较大的雷达天线和较多的机载设备,因此适合的机种只有直-8,目前国产主动有源相控阵已经在神盾舰上和预警机上运用,因此在其基础上发展一型单阵面的空中预警雷达装 备在直-8上面应该没有太大的技术障碍。并且配合综合信息显控台、电子支援系统和数据链可以构成一个完整空中警戒与 控制引导系统,在本世纪初相当于国上LINK-11的国产数据链已经入役,从这个角度来讲其得到的空情信息也可以发送给神盾舰融合成完整的编队空情信息网 ,可以让水面舰艇提前将舰空导弹对准导弹来袭方向,以增加增加编队的防御时间。更吸引人的是为 直-8预警直升机增加CEC协同交战能力,来发挥HH-9长程狙杀能力,即由发挥相控阵雷达扫描速度快,目标信息更新速率高的优点,将目标信息发送给载舰,由后者 处理后作为HH-9的弹道修正信息,由于HH-9采用了末段主动雷达导引方式因此可以较发挥CEC协同交战能力的优点(美国的 SM-2由于采用末段雷达照射方式,因此融入CEC就比较困难,所以新的SM-6已经采用末段主动雷达导引方式),其最大的优点就是增加了导弹的拦截距离,可以将目标对掠海导弹的拦截距 离由30公里提高到60公里以上,可以组织多次拦截,从而降低对近距防御系统的压力,特别是导弹这个距离上 多采用自控导,导弹比较平直,机动过载不大,并且在平静的海面背景下,HH-9的末段主动雷达导引头从上往下可以更好的探测反舰导弹。

    如果此举能够试验成功,则标志着俺国海军水面编队具备了超越水平线的拦截能力,其意义的是非凡的,并且可以 为未来组建航母编队打下坚实的基础。

    Basically, he started off by talking about radar horizon and the height of the radar. And then talked about different helicopters adopted for AEW role like Ka-31, Sea King and EH-101.

    One thing to remember is that Z-8 is bigger than Ka-31 and Sea king. In terms of length and height, it's about the same as EH-101, although the latter is supposedly heavier. Therefore, it certainly has the ability to carry a lot of operators + equipments.

    He talked a lot about using Z-8 to provide targeting info to air defense destroyers and providing guidance for HH-9. That would increase the range of engagement against oncoming sea-skimming AShM. The Aegis system certainly uses targeting info from E-2, so it makes sense that HH-9 would too.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    thanks tp. btw, for the uninitiated, what are the weak areas of china's naval heli? and areas of strength(if any)?

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    Quote Originally Posted by getready View Post
    thanks tp. btw, for the uninitiated, what are the weak areas of china's naval heli? and areas of strength(if any)?
    Let's see...

    Engines, avionics, the whole lot. On average, the Chinese are about 20 years behind us in certain areas of helicopter design.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    Except for the Helix and various Mi-8/18 variants, all of China's helos are of French origin. There hasn't yet been a wholly Chinese helicopter made. Nothing along the lines of the MH-60S with dipping sonar, radar, anti ship missiles and on-board processing gear in one airframe.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    Have you heard of WZ-10? That is a completely Chinese design.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    Quote Originally Posted by getready View Post
    thanks tp. btw, for the uninitiated, what are the weak areas of china's naval heli? and areas of strength(if any)?
    there are many weaknesses, but the ultimate one is that they just don't have enough naval helos. That's why Z-15 project and the 10 ton helo projects are so important right now.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    The ultimate problem is their engine department. It always come back down to engines.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jackbh View Post
    Have you heard of WZ-10? That is a completely Chinese design.
    No, it uses the same five bladed rotor system from the latest iteration of the Super Puma, the EC-225, and a gearbox derived from that helo. The engines may or may not be derivatives of the PT-6, depending on which source you wish to believe.
    Last edited by Ambivalent; 06-13-2009 at 09:59 PM.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    I'm not sure where you get your resources from. But generally speaking you cannot say just because a car has 4 wheels it is a copy from another car with 4 wheels, so how is it when you see a helicopter that has 5 rotor blades then it is a copy from another helicopter with 5 rotor blades.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tphuang View Post
    there are many weaknesses, but the ultimate one is that they just don't have enough naval helos. That's why Z-15 project and the 10 ton helo projects are so important right now.
    Tphuang, I notice you keep mention this 10 tonne helicopter, what do you think it will be like, similar to the NH-90 or... a downsized merlin?

    Why is China pursuing two transport helicopter programmes at the same time, and is the 10 tonne one a completely indigenous venture (save for maybe the engines)?

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambivalent View Post
    No, it uses the same five bladed rotor system from the latest iteration of the Super Puma, the EC-225, and a gearbox derived from that helo. The engines may or may not be derivatives of the PT-6, depending on which source you wish to believe.
    it used certain Western components, but it's still an indigenous design. That would be like saying Gripen is not an indigenous effort.

    Gearbox was definitely imported for a while there, although they are producing it domestically now.

    As for engine, it's not "which source you wish to believe", we know it's using WZ-9, which is completely different from PT-6.

    The ultimate problem is their engine department. It always come back down to engines.
    that's a common myth, when they couldn't produce enough Z-8, it wasn't just due to engines, they had a lot of weak links in the supply chain. If you look at a simpler helicopter like Z-9, they have not had the same problem recently. This industry in China is just not very developed, that's the big problem. They are doing a 50-50 venture for Z-15, but even the Chinese side admits that they are actually developing less than 50%.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bltizo View Post
    Tphuang, I notice you keep mention this 10 tonne helicopter, what do you think it will be like, similar to the NH-90 or... a downsized merlin?

    Why is China pursuing two transport helicopter programmes at the same time, and is the 10 tonne one a completely indigenous venture (save for maybe the engines)?
    They are actually pursuing at least 1 more. Their co-development project with Russia based on Mi-46 is probably the true heavy transport they are looking for. Z-15 really is in a very common weight class. It can be adopted for many roles. They can for example use it for smaller ships. The 10 tonne helicopters could become like Chinese equivalent of Seahawks. On Chinese side, they were saying that their goal is to develop something that is ahead of blackhawks (PLA still loves their S-70s), but it could turn out to look a lot like S-92. They've basically already turned S-300 into their unmanned helicopter.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    AVIC II and Eurocopter have been working on a common drive system and rotor head for a number of years. This is well publicized in the helicopter industry. Why does this surprise you so? Eurocopter and before that Aerospatiale have been sharing their designs with China for decades. This is nothing new. That big Z-8 is just a Super Frelon, and it owes it's rotor head design to the Sikorsky CH-53/CH-54. That, too, is well documented.

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    Re: Naval Helicopter thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ambivalent View Post
    AVIC II and Eurocopter have been working on a common drive system and rotor head for a number of years. This is well publicized in the helicopter industry. Why does this surprise you so? Eurocopter and before that Aerospatiale have been sharing their designs with China for decades. This is nothing new. That big Z-8 is just a Super Frelon, and it owes it's rotor head design to the Sikorsky CH-53/CH-54. That, too, is well documented.
    So, just because AVIC-II uses drive system and rotor head that it worked on with Eurocopter, that means Z-10 is not an indigenous effort?

    And nobody is doubting that Z-8 is a Chinese produced Super Frelon.

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