SinoDefence Forum

rhino123

I am not sure why you think anyone in this forum is getting irritated by about the purported strategic advantages and/or disadvantages regarding "shielded" dry docks.

What we are actually looking at is why do you want to hide the building of a new CV? It is not a new technology. sure the chinese had brilliant engineers, designers, etc, nobody is denying that, and they might be able to come up with really cool design that works. But what really is there that by just looking at it, you could know what is happening in the ship?

And it really is kind of pointless in having the best hardware in the world, when there really is not a crew to operate it. and up till now, CHina is not experience with actual CV operation. SO even if they have a really good carrier that suddenly spring out of nowhere, it is really quite useless and a floating target without competent crew to man it.

rhino123

Actually, the only strategic importance that I saw with the shielded dock, was that they can carry out work on a ship at a much quicker pace, because it is shielded from the weather. Also it make logistic a bit simpler in a shielded area whereby all the equipments can be stored in a single compound and that would cut down transportation time.

As to the place was heavily guarded and stuff like that, I believe it to be so for all military manufacturing compounds in the world so there really is no some secret or novel or new technology being introduce here... it is just logistic and supply chain.

Engineer

If I were to be in charge of building the aircraft carrier, I would keep on telling everyone that I'm going to start building next month, to the point that no one would trust me anymore. Then suddenly, I will present the finished carrier. By that time, the West could throw a fit all they want, but the rice would be already cooked.

bd popeye

I don't think anyone in the west would throw a fit. I'm sure western military planners have long know that China is developing a CV program. No big deal really. The US, Japan, Italy, Spain & S.Korea have all built CV/DDH/LHD in recent years. What sort of technological advantage would China have by hiding construction other than the element of some surprise as to the possible finish date??.

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Wolverine

Richard you're talking out of your ass again. Please link a source where "car mechanics" qualifies someone as an engineer in China. Don't refer me to some alleged source from 1967 that we're all sure no one will be able to find. Post it directly to this site.

hyalitemarine

I do not think the previous poster was speaking from his posterior, here is a link to that seems to back up his claim. News: Quality vs. Quantity in Engineering - Inside Higher Ed

I find these forums very educational. My views about subjects are changing rapidly given all the give and take here. Everyone has an idea about how things are, but when I am proven wrong on a subject, I'm just as excited about it as if I was right. This forum is for all of us to become more educated about the subject matter, in this case the Varyag. This is not a place for easily bruised egos to lurk.

Lundblad.Jeff

I have heard this before too. China counts auto mechanics as engineers, the United States does not. This means that comparing the number of engineers each country pumps out each year is irrelevant since what qualifies as engineer varies between them.

Wolverine

Well I'll be darned. Richard isn't talking out of his ass for once.

hyalitemarine

I suppose therein lies the very definition of technological advantage. If, for instance the Chinese decided to modify the propulsion system in a new way, that could be a great advantage if other nations did not know the details of those changes. For instance, instead of direct reciprocal driven propeller shafts and rudders the Chinese could have electrically powered, omni-directional propeller pods. That way the power plant powering those pods could be located almost anywhere, or subdivided into many smaller units, throughout the ship. Knowing these details will give other nations advantages in precision missile placement. Technology today is moving from just "smart" weapons to "super smart" weapons.

A dumb weapon usually needs repeated strikes until enough critical systems knock the ship out. A smart weapon can be guided to the area of the ship's main power plant. A super smart or "brilliant" weapon will hit the generator in the ship carrying the greatest load.

More knowledge equals an advantage.

bd popeye

Really? Modern cruise/ocean liners use this technology. So what else is new?

Perhaps the new PLAN CV will be powered similarly to the new USS Makin Island LHD-8. No secrets here.

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Engineer

What I want to say is, there will definitely be complains, so rather than having to justify why it needs a carrier, China can just finish one and everybody will have no choice but to accept it. Not that it matters if the West complains, but it just saves a whole lot of PR trouble.

Electric drive is possible, but azimuth pods are out of the question. Azimuth pod is essentially rudder and propeller in one, so when it goes, you lose both systems simultaneously.

The interior structure of the ship would be an important thing to hide.

Totoro

Doesnt the cvf class carrier use steerable pods ? Four of them, to be precise, where pairs of them are quite far apart. With so many, its not as easy to cripple a ship. On the other hand, in a classical layout, both the propellers and the rudders are all fairly close by, at the end of the ship, and are just as susceptible to damage.

maozedong

I think this is a latest Varyag pix, some progress but not too much. however they are busy to work on it.

Bltizo

This is from the defencetalk news reel... which we can all see of course.
Taiwan says China starts building first aircraft carrier | Navy News at DefenceTalk

"Taipei: Taiwan said Wednesday that its giant neighbour China has started building its first aircraft carrier, a move analysts have said could raise military tensions in the region.

The head of Taiwan's National Security Bureau told parliament construction of the carrier had begun, Lin Yu-fang, a legislator of the ruling Kuomintang party, told AFP.

However, the security chief, Tsai Teh-sheng said the carrier's construction "has not been smooth" and that the Chinese navy may struggle to put it into service by 2012 unless it makes a manufacturing breakthrough soon.

"This is the result of an evaluation not only from (Taiwan's) National Security Bureau...but also from the Chinese communists," Tsai said, according to Lin.

Taiwanese military experts expect the People's Liberation Army to take at least 10 years to have its first operating carrier group complete with carrier-based fighters and other warships.

"Once they complete the ambitious project, it will have a serious and far-fetched military impact on the region," said Wung Ming-hsien, professor at Taipei's Tamkang University.

"And by that time, the United States, Japan, and Taiwan will need to overhaul their military strategies."

A carrier group would potentially double the military threat posed to Taiwan by China by allowing the Chinese to approach from directions other than across the Strait, he said.

Two weeks ago Taiwan's defence ministry said in its annual report that China had continued its military build-up against the island despite warming ties, tipping the military balance in the Taiwan Strait with more than 1,300 ballistic and cruise missiles targeting the island.

Ties between China and Taiwan have improved significantly since the China-friendly politician Ma Ying-jeou became the island's president last year, vowing to adopt a non-confrontational policy towards the mainland.

But China still regards Taiwan as part of its territory awaiting to be reunified by force if necessary, although the island has governed itself since 1949 when a civil war ended.

The United States has repeatedly urged China to be more transparent about its rapid military buildup, warning of a shifting balance of power in the Asia-Pacific region that could cause misunderstanding."



If these timelines are true, then China must be quite far along with it's carrier construction, because it says China will "struggle" to get a carrier in service by 2012, meaning that may have been the original timescale but may be delayed (maybe to.... the much speculated 2015?).
Interesting revelation this article is, if true.


(But it is annoying that a carrier will change the "military balance" so much and cause military strategy re evaluations and such. This is what I meant a while ago by countries doing a "fit" over china building a carrier. And of course the Taiwan problem is not helpful to China's carrier ambitions and power projection in that there will be opposition in the form of accusing of using it to attack Taiwan. sigh. I wish the world would soon accept the presence of an increasingly powerful Chinese military instead of working against it.)

Jeff Head

I think that is an important pic. Compare the construction on the island from a few weeks ago to the one you just posted:




Can you say PAR? I think we are seeing the PAR sub-structure being built right there.