SinoDefence Forum

kroko

If those are recent (a few days ago) pictures of the varyag, then it means that work on the varyag have stopped, because there is no change whatsoever from the pictures a month ago.

bd popeye

And wait..and wait some more.

I've mentioned it before and I shall mention it again..

The PLAN has held the Varyag since 2001. In that time the USN has commissioned two CVNs & 2 LHDs. And the USN has CVN-78 under construction. Japan has commission 1 DDH(helo CV) and has one more in the final state of construction. S. Korea has commissioned 1 LPX and is building another. France has commissioned 1 LHD. Italy had Spain have each built and commissioned CV. Australia has one LHD now in construction.

They've had time to study and re-fit..In fact enough time build two CVs!!!

PLAN..it's your Turn...

I've re-named the thread to better reflect the subject. Post all your PLAN CV info and photos here!

__________________
Discover the Chinese and World Military picture threads!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


..And the Chinese Daily Life Photo thread!!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


..And don't forget

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"I am what I am.... 'Dat's all what I am"

Jeff Head

Popeye, as you say the US has commisiooned two CVNs and has a thrid building.

The US has also commissioned two 40,000+ ton LHDs and has a 3rd LHA(R), the LHA(R)-6 America, building.

France has commissioned two LHDs, the Mistral and the Tonnerre.

Italy has commissioned their carrier, the Cavour.

Spain has commissioned their carrier, the Juan Carlos I.

Japan has commissioned the small CHV carrier, the Hyuga, and has already launched the second, the Ise.

The South Koreans have commissioned the LPH Dokdo (BTW, did you read THIS a few months ago?)

The UK is building their CV-01 Queen Elizabeth.

...and the Varyag is still in dry dock. We shall see. They have spent a lot of time and money on her and I still expect we shall see something come of it...but they are far behind the curve.

rhino123

Hi, all of you have valid points. China is spending lots of time on their first CV. However the point is... this is their first CV. It is always longer when building something that is totally new.

All the nations that Popeye had mentioned had operated before or are still operating CV and they are very well verse with the CV operation and their shipyard are well verse in building one, as for Japan and Korea, well, Japan operate Carrier in WW2, they are quite familiar with carrier operation. Both Korea and Japan had very good shipyards, well verse in building large ship and they have all the supporting infrastructure and industries such as electronic, mechanical, etc to build small CV, LHD and stuff. China on the other hand is only coming up (technology wise) this decade and so still had a long way to go especially in the electronic stuff.

China had never in history operate before a carrier or build one, therefore they need much more time to get things sorted out. And I think it is better for them to actually look into all aspect, take their time to sort out everything before launching the platform.

bd popeye

Excellent post Rhino 123. My thoughts on your post..

But how long does it take? China was studying CVs in the 80s.I'm sure you know that the Chinese also had the RAN Melbourne in it's grasp? You may know that the ROC dismantled the USS Shangri-La (CV-38). There may have been undercover Chinese in that breakers yard "taking notes" for the PRC.

Korea had never built a CV now they have one commissioned and one building..

Japan had not built a CV for 65 years. Most of the men who designed and built those WWII CVs for Japan are dead.

I have no doubt that China can build a CV. They can and shall... But I'm tired of waiting on this endless re-fit of the Varyag. Wake me up when it's over.

__________________
Discover the Chinese and World Military picture threads!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


..And the Chinese Daily Life Photo thread!!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


..And don't forget

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"I am what I am.... 'Dat's all what I am"

Wolverine

What are you even talking about? Nobody even has any idea for sure what they are planning to do with this thing, or what pace they have set for themselves, or why exactly they are taking the time that they have, but somehow you have this prescience to pass judgment that they are "behind the curve"? Behind what curve? Building a carrier? Commissioning a carrier? How do you even know they have the same time schedule or are under the same financial constraints or military requirements that other navies are? Being behind a curve assumes they are trying to build a fully functioning carrier as fast as possible because there is some military customer tapping their heels and looking at their watches. You know neither of these things are true or not true, so what makes you say they are behind anything at all?

A.Man

Reliable source: PLAN doesn't want to pay the money what Mr. Xu asking for the Varyag.

PLAN doesn't believe that Yaryag met its requirements.

williamhou

Varyag is too old to become a capable CV. After careful examination, it may become a training platform, museum, casino or theme park.

I am pretty sure for the 1st aircraft carrier, they would like to build something themselves, as it is a national pride, and China has the ability to build one much better than the old Varyag.

What exactly did China say about what they were going to use the Varyag for when they bought it? As a responsible nation they may stick to it.

Jeff Head

Wolverine, you are making the assumption on what I meant by a time curve,

Numer 1) It is self evident that the PLAN has spent a lot of time and effort on the Varyag. From two very expensive stints in dry-dock, to going to the trouble of installing a non-skid surface on her deck...and they continue to work on her to this day. As I said, and it is clearly my own belief and not stated as fact, I believe (did you catch that?) that we will see something come of her.

Number 2) Given the post I was responding to by Popeye, and given my own comments, it is also self-evident that related to the ROW and their carrier building efforts, that the PLAN is behind that curve. They may not care about the curve...and that is fine and something I did not refer to or consider in my own comments...my comments were plainly comparing their long work on the Varyag to the efforts of other nations...and in that respect, the PLAN is behind the curve.

Financial reasons (which I doubt), priorities (which is very possible and which may well be conflicted), desire to make the Varyag functional (refer to number one for my own opinion on that), and others are all reasons they could be behind the curve I mention.

You may not like that, or agree with it, you may be refering to or interpreting another curve all together...and that is fine too. That's what a discussion forum is all about. But, since you asked...that is what I was talking about. Hope that clarifies it for you.

Wolverine

Well that's the whole point, isn't it? If they don't care about the curve, they are not part of the curve. If their priorities do not lie in finishing a fully-functional carrier in the standard expeditious manner (and again, we don't even know what their priorities are), how in the world can you compare the building schedule of the Varyag (if that's what it is) to that of other carriers, who ARE actually trying to finish a known product in a period of time specified by a fixed contract? You are comparing apples to oranges. This carrier is the biggest mystery in the PLAN, and frankly, until we know why they are taking their sweet time doing anything at all with this ship, it's not part of any curve whatsoever.

Vlad Plasmius

First the Ronald Reagan was laid down several years before China got the Varyag. Had it not been the George H.W. Bush would be still be under construction. Also, as has been pointed out, the U.S. has already built carriers, a lot of carriers, and the two carriers you mention are the last in a class so all the infrastructure is in place already. The same applies to the amphibious assault ships. However, more to the point, any country is behind the curve when compared to the United States.

Both of these countries have also built carriers.

These are all light carriers and the Varyag is at least twice the displacement of all of them. I doubt the PLAN is spending all this time and money on a training ship. So when the Varyag is commissioned as an active carrier it will leapfrog all of these countries.

The time question is another problem. While they bought it in 2001 it wasn't in dock until 2002. Also, it seems likely that work only really began on the Varyag in 2005.

It's not too old. Several U.S. carriers were launched around the same time or before and aren't set for decommissioning in a decade. The Gorshkov is older than Varyag and is going to enter service with the Indian Navy. The Sao Paulo is 50 years old and just entered service with the Brazilian Navy a decade ago.

Varyag may be old but currently the only ships with higher tonnage are U.S. carriers.

On a side note, I think China is fully capable of building a light carrier but to have one they would most likely want VSTOL jets and currently the only one in operation is the Harrier so domestic design and development would be required. Until they develop such a fighter I doubt they'll go for a light carrier.

Wolverine

Unless they are going to build a helo carrier like the hypothesized 081, which would likely be in size between the 071 (~20,000t) and the Varyag (~60,000t). Such a carrier would certainly be in the light carrier category.

bd popeye

I agree that the Varyag will not be strictly a training ship.

Virtually impossible. Sailors need to be trained at sea without the distractions of shore assignments.

On 02.06.2007 I posted this in this very thread. I stand by these words.

__________________
Discover the Chinese and World Military picture threads!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


..And the Chinese Daily Life Photo thread!!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


..And don't forget

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"I am what I am.... 'Dat's all what I am"

rhino123

Actually up till now, we are thinking and spectaculating that China really need an aircraft carrier. And to many (no offense intended), they are hoping that China is in need of an aircraft carrier. However, I believe, none of us actually know what China wanted.

The aircraft carrier might basically be a decoy to something else (and God know what is that thing). Lets face it, after all this years, almost nothing was seen and only recently did some progress being make on a carrier that they bought so many years ago.

Also if they really wanted that carrier, and as Jeff had pointed out, they are behind some curve, but have we actually take into consideration of political constraints? Diplomatical constraints? Relationship with neighbouring countries.

Afterall China always protrait herself as a peaceful nation, the first thing that would come to the mind of her neighbour would be, "why do they want an offensive weapon, to patrol some island chains? would it affect me?" and if that happen, it would most definitely start an arm race in the region, with countries with the capability to built carriers like Japan and Korea to start building more carriers.

No one want to go back to the cold war and this is a sensitive issue, so I believe China is taking her time and watching the reaction of her neighbour closely, and only until she feels secure and comfortable, she would then launch her carriers, and I believe none of us watcher out there would know when that time would come.

tphuang

right, like your other reliable sources? PLAN will get Varyag for one purpose or another. All that time at dry dock is not cheap, there is a purpose.
This is complete nonsense. They are undergoing refitting for it. Over the long run, Varyag is unlikely to lead a major expeditionary force, but it will be very important for the next 20 years in training PLAN in carrier ops. It could even have other roles after that. It could serve as a helo carrier. It can do a bunch of stuff. You don't just give up on this ship after all this work.