SinoDefence Forum

Wolverine

Blithely. Yeah. What I see here is a whole lot of handwaving and smoke-blowing with nothing to show for it. What I also see here is that you can't do anything to demonstrate that the sponsons pose significant stability issues, an issue which your links have nothing to do with. Perhaps you haven't yet realized that a fully loaded Mk 41 launcher weighs about the same as a fully loaded F/A-18C. Perhaps you are now going to entertain me by trying to create an enchanting tale about how carefully the deck boss manages weight balance on the carrier by weaving an intricate ballet of aircraft movement on the flight deck such that aircraft on each side of the midline of the carrier perfectly balances out the other side. Perhaps you will ignore photos where rows of aircraft are often shown parked at the very physical edge of the flight deck on only a single side of the carrier, or will suggest that these photos do not show that there is a dangerous list to that side and the flight deck people are actually being wantonly suicidal.

Being subject to severe damage in heavy weather and posing stability issues isn't even the same thing, or haven't you figured that out yet? BTW, have you yet demonstrated the exact reason (by a convenient online link) the why sponsons were deleted and why similar designs were not repeated, or that the issues with the Forrestal would apply in general to any carrier? Gee, perhaps the reasons are not what you are trying to portray, Ambi?

Sorry, but I think I'll go with the opinion of professional ship designers over your opinion on this one. It's not just you vs. one Russian designer, it's almost certainly you vs. a whole bunch of trained and seasoned professionals. I don't think they even agree with your basic premises of what the Kuznetsov (and by extension the Varyag) is intended for.

The question remains. Where did you get "225 tons" from? I see 225 psi in that brochure. But that's not exactly the same thing, is it?

Have you ever seen a sideview photo of the Varyag or the Kuznetsov? If so, try looking again.

A.Man

Street Talks Regarding Chinese First CV, 78000 tons!


以下是江南厂某工程师的讲话内容要点：


1、中央军委及海军领导日前观看过航空母舰模型。

2、孕育中的中国航空母舰计划（保密）。

3、江南造船厂已经拿到了由无锡船研中心、701、708等所联合设计的航空母舰图纸，航母的满载排水量7 万8千吨，动力是沪东厂造的蒸汽轮机，非核动力。武警派的一个中队上月20日进厂，厂里正在为 武警腾宿舍。

4、舰载机据说是国产机，可能是歼11和歼10。很多辅助厂的技术员已经进厂，乱哄哄的。为造航母，还成立 了指挥部，厂长只当了 个常务副总指挥，总指挥不知是谁。上海船舶公司外事处我认识的一个南开毕业的俄语翻译。这几天，天天来这里 上班，说是来了几个俄罗斯技术专家，与造航母有 没有关系，他也不知道。

5、上航母船台的，每月还有220元津贴。

6、大连船厂造的是两栖攻击舰，排水量22000吨。我们厂能争到这艘航母，是因为船用钢板是用宝钢的，蒸 汽轮机是沪东的，运输安装方便。

7、根据我造军舰的经验，加上安装武备、试航等，起码要到2016年才能服役。如还要让航母与舰载机磨合， 真正形成战斗力恐怕2018年才行。

8、昨天上海安全局七处来人，专门把班长以上的工头召去开会，要求大家增强保密观念，不要把情况往外说，厂 里也已定了几条纪律，最利害的是泄密者立即下岗，这一条大家比较怕。所以，以后只能挑不涉及保密的消息给大 家过过瘾。

9、来了四位法国专家。据说，当初法国出售给台湾幻影2000战斗机导致中国降低与法国外交关系级别，后来 恢复时法国许诺也在军 事工业上帮忙。再后来..，这件事就放下了。这次正好我们要造航母需要帮忙，法国也借机来还旧情来了，不过 中国也还给了法国另外一些商业利益，据说包括京 沪高速铁路、南京地铁项目等。

10、厂里不同意现在就给保密费，但同意多给一些冷饮费，这件事也就熄火了。据设计室的人说，航母上可以载 38架飞机，不过有几架是直升飞机，舰载战斗机肯定是国产机，法国人要帮的忙，可能就有改造国产飞机的项目 。

11、俄罗斯专家主要是帮助解决动力问题，航母的最高航速达到32节，俄罗斯技术的蒸汽轮机每台可达790 00马力。

12、在江南厂建造中的航空母舰这几天总政保卫部、南京军区、东海舰队、安全局等机构纷纷关注这件事，并且 在指挥部下专门设了一个保卫处。保卫处一成立就 召集所有的人开会，宣布保密事项和纪律，特别是又把我们一线的一百多个大学生研究生召集起来，要求大家根据 威海会议精神，不要将航母机密告诉亲朋好友。

13、这次建造航母的预算，是三十亿人民币，这不包括舰载飞机的费用。航母的甲板基本上是学美国的，采用斜 线跑道，艏跳板滑跳起飞，因为用的是歼10舰载 机，所以不用弹射器。歼11飞机已经国产化80%，舰载型据与我关系很好的毕业于武汉海军工程学院的驻厂军 代*表说，已经没有大的技术障碍，肯定能造出 来。7万8千吨的航母放24架一个中队的歼11，另可能会有3架后备，另外的预警、反潜和空中加油机等，基 本是国产或改造的，但都有引进的外国技术。

14、我见到的俄罗斯技术专家，原以为是动力方面的，现在搞清楚了是来指导安装"顶板"雷达的。这次航母上 的火控和自动控制系统，以俄罗斯的为主，也有部分引进法国、以色列、意大利和瑞典的技术。我感觉比较杂，因 为我不是搞这方面的，所以说不出多少道道来。

15、为航母护航的舰艇，也已经安排就绪，093核动力攻击潜艇美国已经报道，不算我泄密。新型的护卫舰， 有4100吨，是隐形设计，其他我不多说，你有机会可以到复兴岛轮渡码头用望远镜朝对岸的沪东船厂的船台上 看看就知道了，线型绝对漂亮。

16、据那位军代表和我聊天时说，这次造航母还是造两栖攻击舰之争，各方压倒性的意见是造两栖攻击舰，连军 方内部都有人主张两栖 攻击舰，但海军内大多数人主张造航母。最后...在听取了两位关键人物的意见后，拍板决定造航母。两位关键 人物都是建造舰艇的专家，认为两栖攻击舰要解决 的舰载机、火控系统、电子系统、动力等难题与航空母舰遇到的问题差不多，两栖攻击舰虽然船体造价比同吨位的 航母低四分之一，但技术设备的研制费与航母是一 样的，所以整体造价上不比航母便宜多少，而作战功能却要低了一个档次。另外专家认为日本人造的大隅号，是欲 盖弥彰的准航空母舰，美国造的硫磺岛号、塔瓦拉 号和黄蜂级虽也能载飞机，但主要功能不是"航空"。所以，两栖攻击舰使用功能到底怎样并没有定论，航母就相 对成熟些，我们不应该去冒这样的风险。再有两栖 攻击舰战略定位模糊，解放台湾，要获得制空权有岸基飞机就够，登陆需要的是大型登陆舰，无需两栖攻击舰和航 空母舰，解决南海问题，两栖攻击舰的舰载飞机又 太少，争夺制空权仍有问题，而对付那些岛屿上敌守军，强大的登陆攻击能力又有些多余。

17、从我了解的情况看，这次建造航母有些设备有"边设计边制造"的味道，目前我厂建造的航母肯定是用常规 动力的蒸汽轮机，第2艘视新型核潜艇的核反应堆 的技术水准和使用状况，有可能用核动力。军方要求造3艘，但目前计划造2艘。从8月2日起，我们就要转到航 母船台工作了。作为有百年历史的近代中国第一家 造船厂造中国的第一艘航空母舰，这是历史对我们厂的厚待，感谢历史。我们将竭尽全力将航母造好，使它成为军 舰中的精品，通过它展现新一代造船人的豪迈。

18、我深信，江南造船厂是有这个实力的。我们建造的112（哈尔滨号）、113（青岛号）导弹驱逐舰就是 最好的证明。说实在的，厂里对造军舰是非常重视的，造112、113时，主要负责技术的和领班基本都是有大 专以上学历的人，一般工人也都有五级以上的职业证书。

19、这次造航母国家批的预算是30亿人民币，占整个军费的2%—3%

20、中国第一艘航空母舰的主要指标：

满载排水量：7万8千吨

动力：蒸汽轮机（沪东厂引进俄罗斯TB12技术制造）

最高航速：30节

经济航速：20节

舰载机：歼-11海军型×36
、歼-10海军型×18

13架反潜、预警、搜救（由直8和直9或进口飞机改装）直升机

甲板跑道：斜线布局舰艏滑挑起飞

雷达：引进俄罗斯"顶板"雷达　　导弹：舰首和舰尾（靠近右侧）下甲板各两组6×2垂直发射井 。
21、其中的吨位比较确定，舰载机到底是否用歼-11，军代*表说海军方面对国产机性能有疑虑，一直摇摆不定，最近又有一说要用即将引进的Su-33。我 透露的其他性能都是引进技术，在中国保密，外国人不会替我们保密，所以我透露也只是先洋人一步。国产尖端技 术我一点也没有透露。这里我透露一点点：为了降 低综合成本，我们的航母不会象美国那样配备那么多驱逐舰、护卫舰和潜艇，力求提高航母的自身反击能力，所以 设计时特别强调航母的自救能力，从武备可以看出 配备的火力不亚于最新的驱逐舰，我粗略地算了一下航母的火力大概等于一艘168（旅洋级） + 二艘529（江凯II）。当然这样的设计牺牲了舰载机的数量。

22、造航母地点：上海长兴岛位于位于长江入海口，比邻崇明岛，全岛面积76.32平方公里

danielchin

I'll do some simple translation for the non-chinese speaking members here:

the first Chinese designed CV (details revealed by an Jian nan shipyard engineer):
1. tonnage: 78,000
2. power: local made steam engine (by Hu dong engine plant based on Russia TB12 technology)
3. Designed by Wu Xi boat research center and 701, 708 institutes.
4. Max speed: 30 (32) knots
cruise speed: 20
5. Radar: Russia Fregat 3D, Russian experts had arrived for the deal.
6. defense missiles: two 6X2 vertical launchers at head and two at tail
7. 36 Naval J-11, 18 naval J-10 (or mabe Su-33), 13 helicopters
8. newly designed escort frigates will be built at Hu dong shipyard
9. four French experts had arrived to help out the naval version of the fighters (J-11 and J-10)
10. total project budget: 3 billion RMB (not including airplanes)
11. expected to into service by 2016, but won't form the real combatant capability until 2018.
12. skip jump design

just translation and summary.

Wolverine

3 billion RMB is about 440 million USD. About the cost of two 054A frigates. That's a pretty good deal. Either that or the 'article' is a crock of nonsense.

bd popeye

You said it.

We've seen these articles many, many times over the last 5 or so years. And still yet we have not seen the first piece of steel cut for a PLAN CV.

We are still waiting

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"I am what I am.... 'Dat's all what I am"

joshuatree

8. newly designed escort frigates will be built at Hu dong shipyard

Is this suggesting yet another frigate design or a reference to the 054s? A very vague description......

danielchin

"新型的护卫舰， 有4100吨，是隐形设计，其他我不多说，你有机会可以到复兴岛轮渡码头用望远镜朝对岸的沪东 船厂的船台上 看看就知道了，线型绝对漂亮。"

Full translation about the frigate:
"The new Frigate, 4,100 tons, of stealth design, can't reveal more than that. But just watch the platform of Hu Dong shipyard by binoculars from the ferry port of Fu Xin island if you got a chance, you'll get the idea. The design is absolutely beautiful."

So, was the engineer talking about something already under building?

williamhou

As he mentioned 054A in #21, it seems he refers to a new type of frigate in Hu Dong shipyard.

Mr T

I'd go with the crock.

78,000 tonnes?
Top speed of 32 knots from steam-power?
In service by 2016?
3 billion yuan?

Yeah, right.

Totoro

Well, 78000 tonnes is quite possible, actually, especially if the main plane used is su33 or something like it. It simply has little sense to build a very small carrier. Benefits of a larger vessel are much greater than the added cost.
steam power can certainly achieve 32 knots, that was possible even before second world war, and even in ww2 it could be applied to HEAVY battleships.

In service by 2016? Now thats impossible. Perhaps it could be launched by then. But full service status would be unlikely to achieve before 2020.

While im not sure how much 3 billion yuan is, id wager the initial pricetag for the first carrier would certainly be over 2 billion dollars, no matter how cheap work is in china.

yanyan25

may be old photo...

maozedong

just for reference.

tphuang

New pictures of Varyag from recent times. Looks like there really is a lot of work going on in there.

Jeff Head

I think the biggest issue is the price quoted. 3 billion yuan is something less than 500 million US dollars.

No way. That's the big hangup.

Now...maybe they could have made a bare bones training carrier out of the Varyag for that price...but then it would not be a 78,000 ton vessel either

If they started building today, meaning laying the keel, they could launch her in 2014-2015. Three years of hard work and they might get her commissioned in late 2017, or more likely 2018. But they would, in reality still be training themselves in carrier ops for the next decade thereafter.

Intrepid

One month later and there is not to much progress, I think. We have to wait another two years until the next spectacular event I fear.