SinoDefence Forum

Vlad Plasmius

I was referring to the fact there was an 052C, an 051C, an 052B, a 956, and two 054s. You mention a configuration involving one cruiser class, one destroyer class, and one frigate class with most now without frigates. To have four different destroyers with four different weapon systems, operating systems and the like would just be messy.

rhino123

One thing I do not understand is why do they build something that resembled the Varyag completely? Is all their future carriers going to look like the Vargyarg? Or are they going to build one training structure for one carrier type?

Plus from the structure (I believe Mao had post similar pics in this forum before), it seemed like the carrier is going to be ski jump type. Although it is impossible to land or launch an aircraft in those structure, and I believe the building is only used to train their sea crew in the operation of carrier, however I do believe that the operation nature, procedure and stuffs like that is different between a ski jump system and a catapult system.

Jeff Head

It would be, but only because of the current limitations. There are only two 052Cs and two 051Cs. It is not likely both would run in the same group for any extended period because they will try and offset them with maintenance needs. One down while one is out. Over time they would have more of a specific type, say an 052D.

A group with two 052Cs, two 054As and two 052Bs would be much cleaner. They have more than enough 054As to do that now. They need more of the other.

That's why right now one 052C and one 051C for AAW, one 052B for ASW and ASuW, and two 054As for ASW and closer in AAW.

It's all speculation now anyhow. We may know in a year or two.

Ambivalent

The Arleigh Burke class has ended up replacing the Spruance, Charles F. Adams and Oliver Hazard Perry classes. It was a good basic design and priced such that it was cheaper to just build more Burkes than come up with clean sheet designs to replace all of the legacy classes. Sometime a mature design with a well known and well controlled price tag is a better choice than starting over with something new, the same dynamic that lead to new LA class boats being built while the originals were being decomissioned. There will be over 60 Burkes built over more than two decades when all is said and done.

tphuang

kind of makes a lot of sense to do this, especially since a lot of the cost overruns these days are caused by constant requirement changes by the navy. But at certain point, US will need to find a next generation DDG design. I'm not talking about CGX or DDX, but something in the same displacement class as AB. In fact, something like KDX-3 would be great, although it could be more stealthy.

As for the argument over escorts, I think it's a huge unknown since they will have several new classes in production by then. 054A is a really good design, but I'm not sure if it has the speed to keep up with a carrier.

Obi Wan Russell

I refer the right honourable gentleman to my earlier post #1525:

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Head
I've said it before. With that training facility they are building in Wusan, we are literally seeing what the Island of the Varyag is going to ultimately look like on the actual Varyag when the PLAN completes the actual construction.

Agreed. More than that, I don't believe such a facility would be built to service the needs of a single carrier either. I believe we are literally seeing the shape of things to come, the follow on carriers to be indigenously constructed in China will be patterned after the Varyag at least as far as Island and flight deck layout goes. Internal arrangements and propulsion details will probably differ a lot, my bet is a whole new design for the hull with a Varyag type flight deck and island on top, simply for reasons of familiarity. This will give China a viable first generation carrier force, enough to gain vital experience and lead to further incremental development, as in the US Nimitz class or the British Invincibles for example. The land based facility will be used to trial new developments in radars for the island, to test the arrangement before being applied to the sea going counterparts. The Chinese seem to have reasoned that although the Varyag is far from perfect, it is good enough to use as a baseline for development, becuase for a start they know the prototype (the Russian Navy's Admiral Kuznetzov) has been in service for some time as 'proof of concept'. It hasn't been without it's faults of course, but the Russians appear to be learnig from their mistakes and improving all the time.

I still believe the Chinese will be pursuing reseach and development of catapult technology, for reasons of practicality, and this will also influence the design of the new carriers. The Varyag has a ski jump built into the bow, so to alter her to a flat deck forward would require major surgery. It isn't necessary though, as she has more than enough spce on the angled deck for two catapults firing from the waist of the ship. Indeed the follow on design for the Soviet Navy, Ulyanovsk, adopted this very layout, and the ship was also enlarged enough to fit a third lift on the port aft quarter. The design of the bow was also altered, so that although it incorporated a ski jump, this was to be superstructure on top of an essentially conventional flat deck. This would allow later retrofitting of a pair of catapults at a later date if required, bringing the ship's complement to four arranged as on US carriers. I think Varyag will get a couple of catapults in the waist at some point, and the follow on carriers will have a more Ulyanovsk type layout... "

__________________
"Without Organic Airpower at Sea (Aircraft Carriers), you don't have a Navy, You have a Coast Guard!"

Jeff Head

I'm not sure about the Varyag itself getting the cats. she may be retrofitted later, but it is also possible that they will use her as is for a training platform and an initial operational capability. But I agree with you 100% that the follow on, indegenous carriers will, along with the ability to remove the ski jump and install a couple of more on the bow.

I also agree that their island and deck arrangments will be similar to the Varyag for the reasons you explain, and will be upgraded over time, using the land facility as a training facility and technology demonstrator/tester before inclusion on actual vessels.

Time will tell.

bd popeye

mods note..riverman I moved your post here;

Aircraft Carriers II

bd popeye super moderator

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"I am what I am.... 'Dat's all what I am"

A.Man

江南造船厂技术成员爆料：自主产权航母8年内下水！

关于我们国家造于不造航母问题，想必大家都有自己的争议，在这里我作为江南造船厂里的一名职工，给大家透* 最新的动向，我先说说造航母的难题，大家看完之后心里就有底了。


第一个难题：特种刚才，都知道美国的HY-100的这种特种钢吗.人家总统拿这种钢当战略资源储备，不往外销售，建个航母需要的刚才不像是造个汽车和 油轮那么简单，这种特种钢材需要承受住9级以上的大风，还有1500度以上的高温，飞机在甲板上起飞降落发 动机喷出的热量是很高的，一般的刚才遇到这种温度就变形了，更别说去打仗了，还有就是这种刚才的柔韧性很强 ，能顶住飞机降落时巨大的冲击力，就那印度来说吧，前些年他们在热吵着建造航母，但是特种钢材问题另他们都 闭嘴了，最后花了天价从俄罗斯买来了452吨钢材，但是建个航母需要2万吨。到现在为止，我发现国内还没有 哪家钢厂能生产这种特种钢。我们自己研制个无缝钢管就要7年，而近几年要研制这种混合钢材，肯定还要N年. 这点就表示5年之内航母不会下水。这还不算是最难的问题！


第二个难题：就是发动机与涡轮的传动杆问题，都知道像美国的航母里面的传动杆大概有30--50米这么长.直径大概在70公分左右，要知道传动杆在工作的过程中高速运转和低速大负荷会运转起热变形， 这一问题直接影响了整个航母的动力，而现在的冷却方式有：风冷，水冷，油冷这三种，但是没一个能用的上，要 知道冷却这么大的东西不仅是把表面温度降低就可以了，同时保证里面的温度也必须降低，这样都有一定的难度， 你总不能走走停停吧，好象上面我说的这三种冷却方式是做热处理定型用的。到现在为止，我们国家也没找出一个 满意的解决办法，人家美国和法国的一直是高级机密！


第三个难题：航母弹射器问题，美国的大型航母发射飞机用的弹射器C-13。一直是人家的最高机密，保密程度不次于对核弹的保密程度，全世界就美国一家能够生产，连法国的“戴高 乐”航母上用的都是买美国的，俄罗斯居然把航母甲板作成弯曲型的，来利用向上角度保持飞机能够起飞，但是这 种方法的弊端很多，舰载机利用这种方法起飞，飞机的载重量不能太大，携带的燃油和武器就很少，具我所知，俄 罗斯的S-33不比美国的FA-18差吧，但是在海上的作战能力就没人家美国的强，原因在于它受制于起飞时的重量限制，携带的东西不多，要 知道在海上起飞个等于是空飞机还不如放个热气球有用呢！弹射器问题我们国家不用说了，肯定是没有的，但是他 又不想造个和俄罗斯一样的，这点就需要我们继续研究，至于说的什么磁力弹射器，那都是狗屁，凭我们国内科技 实力未来30年内不会有，这点是最重要的。


第四个难题：航母不像是摩天大楼，里面的中央空调和通风设施都那么简单，随便安装到地上.大家想想，几千个 人住在一个封闭的空间里通风设施不好会发生什么，肯定要憋死人的，人都憋死完了还怎么去战斗。这点虽然是个 不起眼的问题，但是很重要，美国制造一个航母之前画个图纸就需要10年之久，航母看外表没什么难度，但是里 面的构造大家试着想一下，房间，电路，水，通风，各种作战室，休息室，储藏室，各种管和机械设备道等等，很 复杂，都不要看新闻上说中国制造出了30万吨级的油轮，就能制造航母。要知道我们国家需要的是强大的航空母 舰，不是一个很大的铁棺材。还有个就是航母的稳定性，当飞机在航母上起飞时如果船体不稳的话那就直接影响着 每架起飞的战机，所以一艘航母行驶过程中必须保持自身的稳定性，海水的冲击力是很大的，更别说有大风的天气 ，这就更要求航母要有百分之百的稳定性，要解决这个难题就必须解决冲击力这个难题，怎么能把冲击力给减消掉 呢？早在60年前人家日本的航母是通过往船体本身里面注入大量的海水，通过船体内部海水对船体的冲击力来减 消外界海水对船体的撞击力，我们国家每次发射火箭的时候，火箭的发射台下面就注入将近30万吨水，来减消火 箭的晃动。而现在这种方法已经很行不通了，我们还不知道美国人怎么解决的，美国的航母来中国访问的时候，我 们国家的领导想参观人家航母内部的结构，统统被人家拒绝了，这点也是技术难题，不知道实验多少 次才能成功！


最后说一点，我上面所说了这么多还没有说出全部的难题，我们国家也很需要有个航母，就是花再多的钱国家也会 去制造，并不是因为钱的多少，我们的经济基础很雄厚，但是我们缺少的是技术，中国为了制造航母，已经培养出 了几带研究人员，磨灭了几带人的青春，我们国家大概是在1982年就确定制造航母并确定开始研究这一项目了 .到现在整整27年了，而有的人会这样说，中国在六几年最穷的时候都能制造出原子弹，难道一个航母就比原子 弹麻烦吗，我在这里可以这样告诉这些人，制造原子弹所需要的重水和浓缩铀技术还没制造一架直升机难呢，原子 弹是一个武器，顶多再需要一个运载平台，而航空母舰是一个很大的机构，作战指挥中心，一个城市，并不是花那 么多钱，那么多精力做出个空铁盒子。中国制造航母需要千千万万个研究着的心血努力，而不是象大部分网友就知 道在网上瞎起哄。明智的话都去努力学好知识去研究攻克难题，而不是纸上谈兵，瞎造事端。


我是江南造船厂的一个技术研发组的成员，可以给大家透漏个小道消息，我们这边也在大力着手航母里面的重要难 题部分，全国几家大了造船厂都在攻克难题，都在几年前参加了制造航母的队伍，相信最多也就5--8年时间就能制造出属于我们自己的海上武器平台了！谢谢大家对我这些个人说法的评判。

/来自中华网社区 club.china.com/

Google Translation

Jiangnan Shipyard's technical staff members broke the news: self-ownership aircraft carrier was launched eight years!

With regard to our country, if not for the aircraft carrier built in the issue, we must have had its own controversy, where I, as JiangnanShipyardInside a staff, for everyone to thoroughly * The latest trends, I will talk about making the carrier's problems, we have at the end of the mind after reading.


FirstProblem: Special Just now, all know that the United States, HY-100 do this special steel. People when the president took such a strategic resource reserves of steel, do not sell out, or buildCarrierNeed not be made just a simple car and oil tankers, which require special steel to withstand winds of more than 9, there are more than 1500 degrees heat,AircraftLanding on the deck to take off the heat emitted from the engine is very high, the average temperature on the earlier encounter such a distorted, much less go to war, and there is this just highly flexible and can withstand the aircraft landing a hugeImpactWith regard to those in India for instance, in previous years, they are arguing with the construction of aircraft carriers in the heat, but the issue of special steel, the other they all shut up, and finally spent a high price from Russia, bought 452 tons of steel, but the carrier needed to build 20000 t. Until now, I found that none of the domestic steel mills to produce special steel. Of our own development of a seamless steel tube is necessary to seven years, but in recent years to develop this mixed steel, sure to N years. This five-year period, says the aircraft carrier will not be launched. This is not the most difficult questions!


The second problem: is the engine and turbo transmission rod problem, know as the United States aircraft carrier inside the transmission rod about 30 - 50 m long. Diameter of about 70 centimeters, it is necessary to know the work of a drive rod in the process of high-speed operation and low-speed heavy load will run from thermal deformation, the problems which directly affect the carrier's momentum, and now cooling methods are: air-cooled, water-cooled, oil cooling of these three, but not a usable, we must Cooling such a big thing to know is not only the surface temperature can be reduced, and at the same time ensure the inside temperature must be reduced, so have a certain degree of difficulty, you can not stop-go bar, as if I said above, these three kinds of cooling method is used to make heat stereotypes. Until now, we haveNationalNor to find a satisfactory solution, others the United States and France has been a top secret!


The third problem: the aircraft carrier catapult, the United States a large aircraft carrier catapult launch of aircraft used by C-13. Has been the people's top-secret, confidential level of no smaller than that of the nuclear level of confidentiality, the world will be able to produce a United States, even France's "Charles de Gaulle" aircraft carrier are used to buy the United States, Russia, actually bend the deck作成type , and to take advantage of upward angle to maintain the aircraft couldOffHowever, drawbacks of this approach are many carrier-based aircraft took off using this method, the aircraft's load can not be too big to carry fuel and weapons on the small, to my knowledge that Russia's S-33 better than the United States of FA - 18 bad bar, but in the sea battleAbilityThe United States no people strong because it is subject to the take-off weight restrictions, to carry things much, need to know to take off months at sea, equivalent to an empty aircraft might as well put a hot-air balloon all useful! Catapult the problem goes without saying that our country, and certainly not, but he did not want to build one, and Russia the same, this requires us to continue to study, as to what that magnetic catapult, it is shit, I think our domestic technology strength over the next 30 years would not have, which is most important.


The fourth problem: the aircraft carrier not look like a skyscraper, inside the central air-conditioning and ventilation facilities are so simple, easily installed to the ground. You think about it, thousands of people living in a closed space ventilation bad will happen, will certainly be suffocated people, and people are suffocated finished also how to fight. Although this is a humble, but very important, the U.S. aircraft carrier to create a drawing before the painting for 10 years would require the carrier to see no difficulty in appearance, but inside the structure we try to think about the room, circuit, water, ventilation , various operations room, lounge, storage room, all kinds of tubes and machinery and equipment Road, etc., are complex, do not read the news, said China produced a 30-ton oil tankers, will be able to manufacture aircraft carrier. To know that our country needs is a powerful aircraft carrier, not a very large iron coffin. There is a carrier of stability, when the aircraft carrier take-off, then it unstable if the hull a direct impact on every fighter aircraft to take off, so the process of moving a carrier must maintain its own stability, impact of seawater is a great, not to mention the weather with strong winds, which also requires carriers to have 100% stability, to solve this problem we must solve the impact of this problem, how can eliminate the impact force to cut it? As early as 60 years ago, people carrier in Japan is through to the hull itself, which injected a large amount of water through the hull of the ship within the water to reduce or eliminate the impact of seawater on the outside hull of the impact force, our country every time the firing of rockets, rocket Here's the launch pad into the nearly 300,000 tons of water, to reduce or rocket shaking. And now this approach is very feasible, and we do not know how to solve problems the Americans, the U.S. aircraft carrier to visit China when the leadership of our country people want to visit the aircraft carrier's internal structure, were all rejected by others, and this point is also a technical problem, do not know how many times experiments to be successful!


Finally point out that I mentioned above, so many do not give a full account of the problem, our country is also in great need of a aircraft carrier, is to spend more money in the state will go to manufacturing, not because of how much money, our economy base is strong, but we lack the technology to China in order to create an aircraft carrier, has trained with several researchers, obliterate a few with a person's youth, our country, probably in 1982 that make an aircraft carrier and to identify research on this programs. up to now a full 27 years, and while some people may say that China's poorest time in six years, can produce an atomic bomb, is not a carrier trouble than the atomic bomb do, I can tell these people here create an atomic bomb and the heavy water required for manufacture of uranium enrichment technology not hard to do a helicopter, the atomic bomb is a weapon, at most, and then the need for a delivery platform, and an aircraft carrier is a great institution, operational command center, a city, and the not spend so much money, so much energy to make empty metal boxes. Tens of thousands of Chinese-made aircraft carrier needs a research effort with the effort, rather than as the majority of Internet users know that the Internet Xiaqi Hong. Wise words have to work hard to learn knowledge and to study the capture problem, rather than on paper, a blind-made incidents.


I am the Jiangnan Shipyard in a technology research and development group that can give you disclose a gossip and to vigorously pursue our side are also an important problem part of the carrier inside the country has several large shipyards are overcome problems, are in several years ago, took part in the manufacture of the carrier's team, I believe that at most 5 - 8 years can make a part of our own weapons platforms in the sea! Thank you for saying to me these individuals judged.

maozedong

we should ID this guy who claims that he is Jiangnan Shipyard's technical staff member.

noone536

can someone translate this cause i dod not understand google translation

bd popeye

mods note >> Agreed 100%..we need a better translation. Google translations leave something to be desired. Not your fault A.Man

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kroko

IF A.Man´s post is correct, then we can conclude that china has been, is, and will be, facing enormous dificulties in constructing an aircraft carrier. One gets the impression that they are aiming for a large carrier with catapults. That 5-8 years is unrealistic. I think it will take much more than that.

carandol

If you compare the latest construction pics with those of the land-based training facility, one thing of interest jumps out. The land-based facility has another mast on which a Top Plate radar is mounted. In the pics where Jeff Head points to a possible PAR mounting structure, the mast structure for the Top Plate is missing. Will be interesting to see if the Top Plate is mounted in the future or if they will use a multi-purpose phased array to handle both precision approach radar (PAR) and long-range early warning similar to the SPY-1 upgrades that are planned for the Arleigh Burkes for helo approach control.

chenwangqi

chenwangqi,welcome to SDF!..You need to make a comment on the photo you posted.

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