SinoDefence Forum

Bltizo · 11-07-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sczepan

It is a lot of knowledge, need by both carriers - deck and hangar management at the carrier, escort jobs for other ships, cooperaton with helos and fixed wing planes .... the planned training with the brazil CV will become a boost to the PLAN carrier operations.

Yeah I meant that the chances of China providing carrier based fighters to Brazil in the near future was unlikely because of the obvious reason that China hasn't had much real experience with building and operating a carrier plane yet and also because Brazil uses a catapult carrier, not a ski jump one which is what the J-15 probably is optimized to use, not that training on the Sao Paulo would be un valuable to the PLAN.

bd popeye · 11-07-2009

Sczepan, this is where I got the info that Sao Paulo was laid up. Yes I know wiki is sometimes incorrect.

Brazilian aircraft carrier São Paulo (A12) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

Upgrade (2005-2009)

From 2005 to 2009, the São Paulo underwent an extensive modernization program. The upgrade included: inspection and repair of the steam turbines; maintenance of the surface condensers; retubing of boilers; repair of two high-pressure compressors; revision of the alternating current electrical generator and purchase of spare parts; maintenance of pumps, valves and structural items; purchase of two API oil-water separators; installation of two water cooling units; upgrade of the chemical oxygen generator; repair and treatment of oil tanks; substitution of the Naval Tactical Data System; installation of a closed-circuit television system; installation of IFF transponder; installation of MAGE system (ESM); flight deck inspection, repair and painting; upgrade of the Optical Landing System processing unit; revision of the aircraft catapults. The upgrade was complete in July 2009, and the São Paulo is due to be fully operational by October 2009.

Twelve Brazilian Navy A-4 Skyhawk will be upgraded by Embraer at a cost of $140 million.The upgrade will be similar to the ones done for the AMX and F-5EM aircraft of the Brazilian Air Force. The program includes restoring the aircraft and their current systems, as well as implementing new avionics, radar, power production, and autonomous oxygen generating systems. Possible weapons to be included in the upgrade are Python 4 and Derby AAMS.

The Brazilian Navy has contracted Marsh Aviation to convert three S-2T Turbo Trackers to AEW configuration, and three more for tanking duties. The engine type and radar have not been specified, but the program is moving forward.

The São Paulo's SH-3 fleet is to be replaced by six ex-USN S-70B Seahawk helicopters. They were purchased in 2008, and are currently being upgraded and refurbished for delivery. The helicopters and a package of engines and support equipment are expected to be delivered in 2009.

Sczepan · 11-07-2009

bd popeye,
mostly I got my information from german "MARINEFORUM" - this is print magacine for navy affairs, which also includes a special hp MarineForum - Zeitschrift für maritime Fragen for news http://www.marineforum.info/AKTUELLES/aktuelles.htm

bd popeye · 11-07-2009

Sczepan, Thanks..at this point my German is non-existent!

The bottom line is I don't think the Sao Paulo has been to sea with an operating air wing for some time.

Sczepan · 11-07-2009

as I sad - the hp is only for actuell news ... but we repeated the story at GlobalDefence.net Community 2.0 :: Thema anzeigen - Brasilien with date of 02 Aug 2009 09:58

Quote:

Nach vier Jahren Zwangspause soll der einzige Flugzeugträger der brasilianischen Marine im August erstmals wieder zur See fahren.

die SAO PAULO (Foto: bras. Marine)

Im November 2000 hatten die Südamerikaner den französischen Flugzeugträger FOCH gekauft und nach Grundüberholung als SAO PAULO in Dienst gestellt. Im April 2001 hatte das Schiff von Toulon nach Brasilien verlegt.

Nach seinem Erwerb konnte sich die brasilianische Marine im Frühjahr 2002 von ihrem 55-jährigen Flugzeugträger MINAS GERAIS trennen, den sie 1956 gebraucht in Großbritannien erworben hatte und dessen Indiensthaltung wirtschaftlich unhaltbar geworden war. Auch die FOCH war damals zwar schon 37 Jahre in Dienst, galt aber technologisch noch nicht als veraltet. Und im Gegensatz zur MINAS GERAIS (20.000ts) ermöglichte die deutlich größere SAO PAULO (32.000ts) der brasilianischen Marine erstmals auch seegestützten Flugbetrieb mit 1998 in Kuwait gekauften Jagdbombern A-4 Skyhawk.

Zunächst gab es auch keinerlei Probleme. Im Mai 2005 brach dann aber eine Hochdruck-Heißdampfleitung (drei Besatzungsmitglieder starben) und das Schiff musste zur Reparatur in die Werft verlegen. Der Werftaufenthalt wurde zunächst auf sechs Monate veranschlagt. Nach Begutachtung nicht nur des aktuellen Schadens, sondern des ganzen Schiffes entschied die Marineführung dann aber, für den ohnehin in der Werft liegenden Flugzeugträger eine etwas später geplante Grundinstandsetzung vorzuziehen. Diese dauerte bis Oktober 2007, aber als das Schiff dann endlich fertig war, gab es neue technische Probleme. Weitere Dampfkessel-Rohre mussten erneuert und die Steuerbordwelle ausgetauscht werden. Nach insgesamt mehr als vier Jahren Werftliegezeit sind nun aber alle Arbeiten abgeschlossen, und die brasilianische Marine sieht den in den nächsten Wochen beginnenden Abnahme- und Erprobungsfahrten zuversichtlich entgegen.

translation is:

Quote:

After four years of compulsive break the only aircraft carrier of the Brazilian navy should go in August for the first time again to the sea.

the SAO PAULO (photo: bras. Navy)

In November, 2000 the South Americans had bought the French aircraft carrier FOCH and had put in service after basic overhaul as a SAO PAULO. In April, 2001 the ship had moved from Toulon to Brazil.

After his acquisition the Brazilian navy could separate in spring, 2002 from her 55-year-old aircraft carrier MINAS GERAIS which she had acquired in 1956 used in Great Britain and whose Indiensthaltung had become untenable economically. At that time also the FOCH was though already 37 years in service, however, it was not valid technological yet as outdated. And in contrast to the MINAS GERAIS (20,000ts) allowed the clearly bigger SAO PAULO (32,000ts) to the Brazilian navy for the first time also sea-supported air traffic with 1998 in Kuweit to bought hunting bombers A-4 Skyhawk.

First there were also no problems. Then, however, in May, 2005 a high pressure-superheated steam management broke (three crew members died) and the ship had to move to the repair in the shipyard. The shipyard stay was estimated first at six months. Then, however, after investigation not only the topical damage, but the whole ship the naval guidance decided to prefer a basic repair planned a little later for the aircraft carrier anyway lying in the shipyard. This lasted till October, 2007, but when the ship was finally ready then, there were new technical problems. Other steam boiler pipes had to be renewed and the tax board wave be exchanged. Now, however, after more than four-years all together shipyard downtime all works are concluded, and the Brazilian navy awaits the decrease and test journeys beginning during the next weeks confidently.

Source: PROMT - ein kostenloser Text- und Webseiten-Übersetzer - Englisch, Deutsch, Französisch, Spanisch, Portugiesisch (Brasilianisch) und Russisch.
this seems to be simillar to your source wikipedia:

Quote:

The upgrade was complete in July 2009, and the São Paulo is due to be fully operational by October 2009.

bd popeye · 11-07-2009

Thanks Sczepan for that translation. If the PLAN and the Brazillian navy do have plans for training it is paramount that this ship gets in a operating status.

danielchin · 11-08-2009

Question: if chinese designed carrier fighter is not for the catapults, what's the point to have their pilot trained at SAO PAULO (and with what plane, A-4?)?

crobato · 11-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Head

I don't recall seeing them...not saying that they were not there, just that I did not see them. Google earth is typically well behind "current" by 12-18 months or more.

I remember seeing the pics of the two subs together in the water at a distance...this photo I believe:

http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/2006-093-01.jpg

...and I felt at the time that those two were the new SSNs.

My point is this...if the Chinese could hide something like that, I would not blame them for doing so. It would just be harder with a carrier given the shear size of the vessel and the amount of material that has to be moved into position and planned, even if they did have a fully enclosed structure to build it in (which they may have in the new shipyards as it turns out).

Jeff, they are there if you know where to look. I got like the PLA Navy and Air Force bases bookmarked on Google Earth for example. Even if they are six months behind, you can spot 093s, Yuans, 094s on Google Earth if you know where to look for them. That also includes the shipyards where the subs are built.

rhino123 · 11-08-2009

I am wondering, why don't the Chinese train with the Russian instead of the Brazilian since the Varyag was a Russian ship and the Russians are more familiar with that type of ship.

Bltizo · 11-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielchin

Question: if chinese designed carrier fighter is not for the catapults, what's the point to have their pilot trained at SAO PAULO (and with what plane, A-4?)?

Aircraft carrier operations include more than only taking off and landing...

@ Rhino123, China might be wanting to train with the Brazilians because the Russians aren't willing to train the PLAN - simply limited choices and politics.
Also it might be because the PLAN want to get experience in operating catapult aircraft carriers? This second option to me seems less likely because even if their first generation of aircraft carriers have catapults then it doesn't mean they have to train to take off from carriers with catapults before trying it on their own ships. But hey who knows how the PLAN actually thinks?

tphuang · 11-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielchin

Question: if chinese designed carrier fighter is not for the catapults, what's the point to have their pilot trained at SAO PAULO (and with what plane, A-4?)?

who told you the Chinese naval fighters are not going to use catapults?

Quote:

I am wondering, why don't the Chinese train with the Russian instead of the Brazilian since the Varyag was a Russian ship and the Russians are more familiar with that type of ship.

China already has access to all Russian things they need from the Ukrainians.

danielchin · 11-08-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tphuang

who told you the Chinese naval fighters are not going to use catapults?

well, my impression from reading this forum was that Chinese carrier based fighters will be "optimized" for skip jump in stead of catapults operation, and that made me wondering how would they train their pilots at SAO PAULO (and with what plane).
I know my impression could be very wrong....

rhino123 · 11-09-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielchin

well, my impression from reading this forum was that Chinese carrier based fighters will be "optimized" for skip jump in stead of catapults operation, and that made me wondering how would they train their pilots at SAO PAULO (and with what plane).
I know my impression could be very wrong....

My opinion in this matter is that the Chinese will operate ski-jump carrier (Varyag) first, since it is the fastest to get one carrier going, get familiarize with the carrier borne operations, which include, escort, logistical support, joint command, replenishment, etc.

However I believe the first indegenious aircraft carrier will be catapault (steam or magnetic) and since all basic carrier operations are already familiarised and the basic taking off and landing operation with a catapault training was already completed (on land and/or from the Brazilian carrier) they get the carrier going in a much faster pace.

Jeff Head · 11-09-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by tphuang

China already has access to all Russian things they need from the Ukrainians.

But it sure would be nice to do some actual take-offs and landings from the Kuznetsov.

Since the Russians have historically sold the Chinese so much military hardwre, I would be very surprised if the Chinese did not explore this option. My guess is that they already have...and who knows what the actual outcome was? There could already be plans in place just waiting for the right time/schedule to happen.

The Kuznetsov is the absolute closest thing to the Varyag and the operations for take-off and landing would be very very similar Iif not pretty much the same) to what the PLAN ultimately arrives at for the Varyag.

Intrepid · 11-09-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielchin

Question: if chinese designed carrier fighter is not for the catapults, what's the point to have their pilot trained at SAO PAULO (and with what plane, A-4?)?

How many pilots were trained and for how long time? How many sorties, take off and landings?

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