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Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

This is a discussion on Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar within the Navy forums, part of the China Defense & Military category; the dispute about the Diaoyu island is an on-going issue, I think we should keep a thread open, anyway it's ...

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    LesAdieux is offline Member
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    Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

    the dispute about the Diaoyu island is an on-going issue, I think we should keep a thread open, anyway it's hard to seperate military from politics.

    Japan says Chinese warships locked weapons radar on MSDF
    by Reiji Yoshida and Mizuho Aoki Staff Writers


    Feb 6, 2013 PRINT SHARE Chinese warships directed their fire-control radar on a Maritime Self-Defense Force destroyer and a helicopter on two separate occasions last month in the East China Sea, prompting the government Tuesday to denounce the “very dangerous act” and lodge a formal protest with Beijing.

    Defense Minister Itsunori Onodera held a hastily arranged news conference to reveal the incidents that took place on Jan. 19 and 30, saying the ministry had just finished analyzing the radar emitted by the Chinese frigates Jiangkai I and the Jiangwei II.

    After what it described as a careful study of the radar data, the ministry concluded the signals came from the Chinese ships’ fire-control systems and were aimed at the MSDF ship and helicopter.

    Onodera denounced the acts as “very abnormal” and said they “could develop into a very dangerous situation.”

    “Usually any country that owns ships like these won’t (direct the radar) of their fire-control system (on ships of another country) unless in extreme circumstances,” Onodera said.

    The fire-control system is used to aim a warship’s weapons, including missiles.

    The fire-control system “radar of a ship is activated before the use of weapons. Directing such radar signals at another party is a dangerous act that could develop into unpredictable situations,” a senior Defense Ministry official said.

    “We will severely demand China refrain from taking such dangerous acts,” Onodera said.

    He did not reveal where the two incidents took place, saying it would provide classified information about MSDF operations.

    But Kyodo News quoted a source in the ruling coalition as saying both incidents took place near the Senkaku Islands, known as Diaoyu in China, which are controlled by Japan but claimed by China and Taiwan.

    According to Defense Ministry officials, the 3,953-ton Jiangkai I emitted radar signals at around 5 p.m. Jan. 19 that set off the threat-alarm system onboard a SH-60K helicopter from the MSDF destroyer Onami.

    The helicopter was flying several kilometers from the ship over the high seas, the ministry said.

    At around 10 a.m. Jan. 30, the MSDF destroyer Yudachi detected the fire-control system radar from the Jiangwei II, which was about 3 km away, over the course of several minutes, the ministry said.

    Both incidents immediately “raised the sense of tension” among the MSDF crews, Onodera said.

    Neither of the Chinese ships tried to communicate with the MSDF by VHF, as is customary among navies around the world, according to the Defense Ministry.

    Prior to his news conference, Onodera briefed Prime Minister Shinzo Abe on the two incidents.

    According to Onodera, Abe instructed him to “react firmly” to the incidents by filing a formal protest with Beijing through diplomatic channels.

    Relations with China have been severely strained since the central government effectively nationalized the Senkaku Islands in September, and Beijing has continuously been sending government ships to the area. On numerous occasions they have intruded into the territorial waters claimed by Japan.

    International concern has grown recently over the possibility of an accidental clash between Chinese and Japanese ships in the area.

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    xywdx is offline Member
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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    I find this sentence hilarious.
    "He did not reveal where the two incidents took place, saying it would provide classified information about MSDF operations."

    As if the PLAN didn't know where the helicopter is after locking on to it. He clearly lacks the basic understanding of how radars work despite being the defence minister of Japan, probably should sack him right away to save some face.

    The other interpretation is if he thinks the populace is a greater danger than PLAN, which leads me to believe those helicopters are not really where they should be.
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    joshuatree is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by xywdx View Post
    I find this sentence hilarious.
    "He did not reveal where the two incidents took place, saying it would provide classified information about MSDF operations."

    As if the PLAN didn't know where the helicopter is after locking on to it. He clearly lacks the basic understanding of how radars work despite being the defence minister of Japan, probably should sack him right away to save some face.

    The other interpretation is if he thinks the populace is a greater danger than PLAN, which leads me to believe those helicopters are not really where they should be.
    Yeah that quote got me thinking too, if there is classified MSDF operations going on here, maybe what the MSDF was doing compelled the CN ships to perceive they were threatened. The Japanese did suggest tracer fire previously so that's already a scenario the CN side no doubt anticipated.
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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    I understand from the news report that there are basically two types of radar targetting - "guide mode" vs. "track mode" with the former being more serious. I want to ask the question what is the typical SOP (if any) if either type of radar targetting is being placed on you by a foreign vessel? What are the operating parameters in which the navy crews say USN can take in respond to such type of imminent threat? Just wondering how serious is such an issue.

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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    At the Chinese side there're already cautions that the Japanese is playing the same trick they did almost a century ago - making something up to "justify" further escalations of tension; in this case, either to prep the upcoming visit to US, or whipping up the public opinion in the coming constitutional reform, giving Japan the "act of war as national policy" which the right-wing hawks are so eager for.

    It's easy, because most would choose to believe Japan's side of story rather than China's, and secondly there's no third impartial party to provide evidence that such thing did take place....meanwhile 99% of the people would ignore the part of "why on Earth that the MSDF have to get that close (3 klicks is bloody close when you talk about naval warfare) in the first place" and most importantly, the "where that took place" question, which the Japanese obviously avoided to answer.
    Last edited by MwRYum; 02-05-2013 at 10:47 PM.
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    Pointblank is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by MwRYum View Post
    It's easy, because most would choose to believe Japan's side of story rather than China's, and secondly there's no third impartial party to provide evidence that such thing did take place....meanwhile 99% of the people would ignore the part of "why on Earth that the MSDF have to get that close (3 klicks is bloody close when you talk about naval warfare) in the first place" and most importantly, the "where that took place" question, which the Japanese obviously avoided to answer.
    Where naval warships are, what they are doing, and for what reason is considered to be a secret, on a need to know basis, even in the public sphere by everyone. The USN doesn't publish where exactly its warships are, what they are doing, and why.

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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    I read somewhere that the JMSDF ship was within three kilometers of the PLAN ship... I'm curious, is that considered quite close for two factions who are currently under less than friendly ties? (think cold war, US and soviet navies)

    Regardless, China and Japan need some proper dialogue over how to deal with future exercises. Either get some kind of minimum observing distance or one day an accident may actually arise.
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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    Japan clearly does not respect the Chinese victory in the Second Sino-Japanese war.

    This is why China should decisively extinguish all Japanese hopes for attempts to gain a permanent seat on the UNSC council and ABSOLUTELY ENSURE that Japanese militarism is extinguished for atleast another 10,000 years, even through the threat of absolute sealane interdiction of Japanese commerce/trade and nuking the shit out of Japan if she dares to re-militarize again.
    Last edited by Phead128; 02-05-2013 at 11:57 PM.
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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by Pointblank View Post
    Where naval warships are, what they are doing, and for what reason is considered to be a secret, on a need to know basis, even in the public sphere by everyone. The USN doesn't publish where exactly its warships are, what they are doing, and why.
    The "where" part can make or break one's case-was that in international/Japan's/China's waters? What's the course and vector of the PLAN ships?- as they can affect the justification of whatever actions followed.

    And more importantly JMSDF warships get that close to PLAN warships at times like this...or vice versa, as I've said before, 3 klicks is too bloody close, getting that close to the other side is either an act of challenge or worse, hostile intent.

    So don't discount those details like the way you do. At least for now, it's evident that Japan wants to escalate the situation.
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    joshuatree is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by Brumby View Post
    I understand from the news report that there are basically two types of radar targetting - "guide mode" vs. "track mode" with the former being more serious. I want to ask the question what is the typical SOP (if any) if either type of radar targetting is being placed on you by a foreign vessel? What are the operating parameters in which the navy crews say USN can take in respond to such type of imminent threat? Just wondering how serious is such an issue.
    Good questions to which I look forward to anyone with insight sharing. I also read that during this whole situation twice, there were no communications between the two which makes me wonder why no warning/inquisitive calls from the Japanese side if they are protesting now on such matters. Were they equally locking on the Chinese ships as well? Afterall, this is a "he said, she said" scenario right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pointblank View Post
    Where naval warships are, what they are doing, and for what reason is considered to be a secret, on a need to know basis, even in the public sphere by everyone. The USN doesn't publish where exactly its warships are, what they are doing, and why.
    Yes but if you're the one filing a protest, some facts need to be given to establish validity of protest. Otherwise, anyone can fabricate protests all they want. I also find the statement a little ironic given how other nations voice concerns that the Chinese military is not transparent enough.
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    Mysterre is offline Banned Idiot
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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by LesAdieux View Post
    According to Defense Ministry officials, the 3,953-ton Jiangkai I emitted radar signals at around 5 p.m. Jan. 19 that set off the threat-alarm system onboard a SH-60K helicopter from the MSDF destroyer Onami.
    This is the only jewel of information that I gleaned from that otherwise idiotic article. How did they get something as specific as "3,953 tons"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brumby View Post
    I understand from the news report that there are basically two types of radar targetting - "guide mode" vs. "track mode" with the former being more serious. I want to ask the question what is the typical SOP (if any) if either type of radar targetting is being placed on you by a foreign vessel? What are the operating parameters in which the navy crews say USN can take in respond to such type of imminent threat? Just wondering how serious is such an issue.
    There are such things as 'target quality tracks' meaning the position of the target is known with enough certainty and precision that a missile can be guided into it. Accuracy of tracks is variable depending on the radar and the target's speed and RCS. Also, some radars can only provide range and azimuth ("2D radar"), while other can provide range, azimuth and elevation ("3D radar"). Every ESA is 3D, while OTH radars are usually 2D only. Also, an FCR for SARH missiles works by constantly bouncing a radar beam off the target that the missile uses to home in on. This is known as "painting the target". This is track mode and is distinct from scan mode which is when a radar sweeps the entire sky looking for targets without pinpointing any specific one. Phased array radars can do both; this is known as "track while scan". PESA's do this by rapidly alternating their single beams between tracking one or more targets and scanning the rest of the sky. AESA's do this by delegating some elements to tracking and some elements to scanning, resulting in multiple radar beams from the same panel. Constantly painting a target and maintaining a target quality track good enough to shoot with is obviously considered a more threatening way to irradiate someone, since the next step after that is the actual firing of your missile into that target. I have no doubt the Japanese ship did not actually feel truly threatened, but it is as insulting and annoying as having someone point a loaded gun at you, even if you are confident they will not actually shoot you.

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    Jeff Head's Avatar
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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterre View Post
    There are such things as 'target quality tracks' meaning the position of the target is known with enough certainty and precision that a missile can be guided into it. Accuracy of tracks is variable depending on the radar and the target's speed and RCS. Also, some radars can only provide range and azimuth ("2D radar"), while other can provide range, azimuth and elevation ("3D radar").

    Constantly painting a target and maintaining a target quality track good enough to shoot with is obviously considered a more threatening way to irradiate someone, since the next step after that is the actual firing of your missile into that target. I have no doubt the Japanese ship did not actually feel truly threatened, but it is as insulting and annoying as having someone point a loaded gun at you, even if you are confident they will not actually shoot you.
    Well, the Japanese helo was targeted by a Type 054 frigate...I am not sure which one. The JApanese destroyer which was supposedly targeted was targeted by a Type 053H3 Frigate:


    The Japanese vessel that was supposeldy "targeted" by this frigate is a Murasame Class DDG.


    If they were within 3 km of the Chinese Firgate, which is much older and less capable than this Japanese vessel, then either they were trying to intimidate the Chinese, or the Chinese were either approaching or already in what Japan considers its "territorial waters."

    Either way, that destroyer is a fairly good piece of business. Fullload displacement is over 6,000 tons.

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    Mysterre is offline Banned Idiot
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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Head View Post
    If they were within 3 km of the Chinese Firgate, which is much older and less capable than this Japanese vessel, then either they were trying to intimidate the Chinese, or the Chinese were either approaching or already in what Japan considers its "territorial waters."
    To be perfectly honest the Chinese consider the Japanese vessel to be in their territorial waters, though obviously the exact circumstances which caused the Chinese vessel to light up the Japanese vessel are not clear to us, whether this was an act of defiance in response to Japanese intimidation, or an act of saber rattling to piss off the Japanese.
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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterre View Post
    To be perfectly honest the Chinese consider the Japanese vessel to be in their territorial waters, though obviously the exact circumstances which caused the Chinese vessel to light up the Japanese vessel are not clear to us, whether this was an act of defiance in response to Japanese intimidation, or an act of saber rattling to piss off the Japanese.
    Exactly, it could have been either. If it keeps up, sooner or later there wil be an incident.

    Coast guard vessels nudging one another and bumping into one another are one thing...but now they have both upped the ante and sent warships into the area and if they get into "physical" contact, some people are going to get killed and vessels damaged or sunk...then who knows how far it will go before they reign it in.

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    Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

    Quote Originally Posted by MwRYum View Post
    The "where" part can make or break one's case-was that in international/Japan's/China's waters? What's the course and vector of the PLAN ships?- as they can affect the justification of whatever actions followed.

    And more importantly JMSDF warships get that close to PLAN warships at times like this...or vice versa, as I've said before, 3 klicks is too bloody close, getting that close to the other side is either an act of challenge or worse, hostile intent.

    So don't discount those details like the way you do. At least for now, it's evident that Japan wants to escalate the situation.
    Where a naval vessel is considered to be OPSEC. If they need to fight it out in a court, that information will only be revealed in private. Very rarely are ship's movement's declassified, and usually it is well after the fact (maybe even a few decades afterwords).
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