SinoDefence Forum

adeptitus

I'd like to open a thread for purpose of discussing what people think an "ideal" PLAN Frigate is. Let's call it "CFX", or "Chinese Frigate X".

My personal opinion leans toward Japanese 8-8 model with dedicated ASW frigates. Ideally, I think the Frigate should have strong ASW capability, with some of the following equipment (note: I don't mean all of them):
* Hull-mounted sonar
* Towed sonar or decoy, like ESS-1 but modernized
* Acoustic device/decoy launcher, like SSTD/Sea Sentor
* Underwater unmanned vehicle for ASW warfare, like this one:
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard...shipbuild3.jpg
* Newer ASW rockets/MLR system, such as RPK-8 (updated RBU-6000) w/auto-loader
* ASW torpedo launcher
* ASROC type missiles (CY-X? Klub-N? SS-N-16?)
* 1-2 ASW helicopters

The ship should also have air defense capability, preferably with both medium-range and short-range point-defense missiles. This could be a combination of SA-N-12 and HQ-7, or something else. If you install CIWS gun systems that have short-range missiles integrated in the system, then that'd qualify the point-defense missile requirement.

The ship should also have at least 2 x 30mm CIWS guns. I'd go as far as reducing number of SSM's to make room for total of 4 x 30mm CIWS guns, mounted in pairs front/aft or front, aft, and sides. Incase if one CIWS system fails, run out of ammo, or burnt out the barrels, there should be at least one other that can cover the same defensive arc.

Other araments, such as SSM's and main gun, is less important. A small, compact 76mm or even 57mm gun is sufficient. For SSM, 4 standard SSM's or 8 light SSM's will do. These are carried primarily for self-defense and limited multi-role/general purpose use. If you're budiling a dedicated ASW platform, it's possible to even exclude SSMs.

As for the body/shape of the ship, I think something like the 054 with extended aft deck, for up to 2 helicopters + room for ASW equipment. At minimum the ship should carry 1 helicopter.

Alternatively, the ship could be modelled after the USN LCS with flexible misson modules:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...GD_cutaway.png

The deck will have space for 2 helicopters, plus hanger space for both. The ship has ~12 cargo container type mission modules that can be swapped out as needed. The aft section has an off-board vehicle launch/recovery ramp which enables you to deploy underwater unammed vehicles. The LCS was also constructed with many off-the-shelf components/technology, which allowed very short R&D and construction time of less than 2 years, with large cost savings.

IMO even with the 054 frame, it's still possible to design it with a smaller number of "mission modules" that can be swapped out for easy upgrades.

What do you guys think?

chicket9

As much as we can fantasize, really, PLAN probably won't build another frigate until Jiangwei becomes 'obsolete', and that ain't happening until a decade later. What we say now is just quite pointless, and aleady covered in 054 thread anyway, as many people and myself mostly agree the hull of 054 is a well rounded design capable of giving PLAN a frigate for blue water operations...it does not excel in all areas, but at least its a balanced platform.

Sure, 054A can improve on ASW, but besides that, it packs a punch for surface and air warfare. 054A I have more praise than criticism, it is the ideal frigate for PLAN.

crobato

Hard for me to think of a "dream" frigate. There is only up to that much you can stuff dream features into a hull, and once you can't stuff anymore, it lacks the feature and stops becoming a dream frigate.

Frigates will always be a compromise of space and feature. These ships are an exercise in good packaging and setting the right requirements and priorities.

Gollevainen

I'm pretty much in the same direction as Crobato....The hull size limits quite alot what you put on the ship. The smaller the hull the less you can fit equipment. It's all down to physics, mainly to positioning the weight. As most of warships equipment that was listed is mented to be above the maindeck level, it's affection to the central gravity centre (or something like that, I'm not sure about the proper english term)

Unfortunetly the Adeptitus listing is not possiple in frigate size hull, to fit them all you would need a hull of the size of Udaloy class BPK.

But like Adeptitus said, he didn't ment to fit all the stuff in the ship so I'm going to give my own proposition later today (I'm middle of very interesting lecture about soil building...)

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Gollevainen

Well like I promised, the ideal frigate for PLAN...

Before we can determine the ideal ship, we should first talk about few paramets. Firstly I will only retrain on those equipment already in use of PLAN or about to enter, or available from realistical supliers. This frigate of mine is supposed to be the one they should have at the moment, not some vessel entering service in future. Thus i wont use rumoured equipment like CY-2 or HHQ-16.

First the little about the ship general design. The ideal size is somewhat 3500-4000 tons full load displacement, lenght about 135-40 meters and beam around 17 meters. This will mean the ship being relatively large, larger than the current chinese frigates, which are all continious (enlarged) design dating back to the old Pr. 50 class SRK. "My ship" would be however completely new and not even related to the latest 054 class vessels. In the hull and superstructure, there would be (as the current trend requires) extensive sthealth features with much more cleaner surfaces than the newest chinese warships features. Superstructure follows somewhat the lines of the 054A, but the bridge being bit closer to the central part of the ship, giving quite long freeboard to the bow.

Now o the machinery. As the ships primary role is ASW, a GODLAG (Combined diesel electric and Gas) arragment is the most ideal. The electriced power transmition eliminates the gearbox noise and makes sonar operations far more easier and makes the ship harder target to enemy submarines. Two DA80 Gas turbines (like the ones in 052B/C) and two diesel electric plants, which are however propaply unavailble to chinese to obtain from foreing sources so in here we have to bend the rules and make china to developt those by itself.

And now to the equipment fit. The helicopter capability should be large enough for any possiple future aqustions (mainly meaning the hangar lenght), but also the height should be large enough to accomodate the current Ka-28. Two hangars for two helicopters. The superstrcuture will start from the hangar and will continue to the end of the bridge (like in Lafayette class). Due the large hangar and the bridge positioning, there wont be no room for SSMs in the most tradditional place in chinese warships, in the cap between the funnel and bridge. Only one mast with highest ammount of "plended" electronics is fitted just above the bridge strcuture.

The armament will be fitted in the large VLS fitted in the front of the superstructure and a 76 mm DP gun in the bow. CIWS systems will be fitted somewhat similar manners like in the 052C DDGs, one atop the hangar and one between the bridge and the VLS systems. This will give the CIWS the largest cover and both system can be used agaisnt same direction of threat.

But what is fitted in the VLS, or what sort of CIWS systems there will be? The ideal solution would be universal VLS like in USN ships which could fire all possiple missiles in chinese inventory. Point defence SAM system would be sufficient enough, but at the moment there aren't no VLS launched short range SAMs availble to china. Only the Russian Klinok would fit this cathegory, but as no other chinese ship is fitted with it, there's no reason to increase the logistical nightmare of PLAN. So for SAMs we will sedlle for VLS version of the SA-N-12. This however requires something for the close range, so thus the CIWS needs to have both gun and missile systems, naturally, the russian Kashtan. The Shtill system naturally comes with the Fregat-ME and Orekh directors (the laters will reduce the sthealthyness of the ship, however) or for the sake of indegenios systems, as someone mentioned in some other thread, the Chinese Sea Eagle Phassed array radar. A powerfull sonar suite, the one fitted in the Neustrashimyy class frigates (Zvezda-1 suite with MGK-345 Bronza/Ox Yoke hull mounted LF, Ox Tail LF VDS) will form the heart of the ships ASW mount.

Altough China fields very potent SSMs, it lacks operational ASW missile. As the ASW is the ships main purpose and the fact that the missiles needs to be i the VLS system, we once again need to rely on russian help. Chinese submarines Kilos are already fitted with the Klub-S system, so adopting the surface combatant version of it, the Club-N shouldn't be so hard. A 16 round VLS is fitted (24 round VLS for the SAMs) for the Klubs. The gun will be the same 76 mm DP as apparently being fitted for the 054A. No ASW mortars would be fitted, their usefullness is bit like bolt action rifles in modenr infantry use...But the natural two tripple 324mm self defence torbedoes will be carried.

Now some of you may critisize the russian dominance in the weapon array and I agree, fafouring indegenios systems over foreing ones is bit controversial but the nature of this "what-ifing" is to get the best possiple frigate for ASW roles and the russian equipment (which is still leading china in the ASW area) is available, then thats the way.

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adeptitus

Here's my armchair general's "4x3" concept:

The 4x3 concept provides triple layers of capability for Air-Defense, ASW Detection, ASW Protection, and ASW Warfare.

Air-Defense
Medium-range SAM
Short-range SAM
CIWS Gun

The SAM system should have capability to intercept enemy aircraft, AShM, anti-radiation missiles, and guided bombs.

ASW Detection
Bow-mounted sonar
Towed Sonar Array (or at least VDS)
ASW Helicopter with dipping sonar

ASW Protection
Towed sonar decoy
MLRs launched acoustic decoy rocket
MLRs launched anti-torpedo rocket

Ideally the MLRs system should have ASW rockets, decoy rockets, anti-torpedo, and anti-diver rockets. RPK-8 w/90R or UDAV-1 MLRS comes to mind.

ASW Warfare
Medium-range ASW Missile (ASROC like)
Short-range ASW Rockets & Torpedos
ASW Helicopter with ASW torpedos/missiles

Since the PLAN doesn't have working domestic ASW missile, we'd have to import Russian Klub-N or SS-N-16.

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I'll provide 2 sets of solutions, the first is "domestic", second "Russian import".

Domestic Solution ASW Frigate CFX-I

Although this solution is labelled "domestic", it'd still have a few Russian imports, simply because the PLAN doesn't have ASW missiles, so we have to import them from Russia.

The displacement will likely to be ~4,000 tons, and resemble an enlarged 054 Frigate with extended aft deck for ASW equipment, such as the DUBV-43/ESS-1 found on the PLAN 052 or French F70 Frigate.

Sensors, C&C, Sonar, etc:
The radar, ECM, ELINT, and C&C equipment are assumed to be similiar to what's currently installed on the 054A. The ship will have, in addition, bow sonar, towed sonar (ESS-1 or improved version), and necessary equipment to operate Russian ASW Missiles.

Missiles:
Since the CFX-I is an ASW Frigate, SSM's are removed to make space for ASW weapons.

The ship will be equipped with 8 x Klub-N (92RE2) ASW missiles, preferably in VLS configuration like the 3S14E system. However if VLS is not avail, then traditional tube/box launchers will do. The ASW missiles will take place of the SSM's usually found near the center of the ship.

In the front of the ship, we'll install a medium-range SAM system, such as the SA-N-12 Shtil (or HQ-16 if avail), behind the main gun. We'd prefer to see a VLS system, but if not avail, then non-VLS system will do. Almaz does advertise VLS 9M317M SAM's in 12-cel VLS config:
http://www.china-defense.com/forum/u...1160608615.jpg

In the aft section of the ship, sitting above the helicopter hanger, we'll install a HQ-7A point-defense SAM system w/automatic reloader. If someday the Type 730 CIWS is upgraded to incorporate SAMs, then the HQ-7 can be removed, or possibly replaced by an integrated CIWS-SAM system.

Guns:
The CFX-I will have a 76mm gun installed in the front, and 2 x Type 730 CIWS guns installed in front & aft (preferred). If front & aft position is impossible due to space issue, then they'd have to go to the side.

ASW:
Besides the ASW Missile, the CFX-I will also have the usual 2 x 18-barrel MLRs found on other Chinese ships, plus 2 x triple Yu-7 ASW torpedos.

Ideally, we'd also like to add a towed decoy system. However the PLAN doesn't currently operate such a system, so itd' prolly have to be imported.

Aviation:
The CFX-I will carry 1 x ASW Helicopter, either Ka-28 or Z-9C, with hanger space for 1 helicopter.


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Russian Import Solution ASW Frigate CFX-II

The Russian import solution will produce a larger (~5,000 ton) sized ASW Frigate, nearing the size of destroyers. Although the ship will be built in the PRC, the majority of its weapon systems will be imported from Russia, as well as the necessary sensors package to operate them. Like the CFX-I, the CFX-II will also be dedicated ASW platforms with towed sonar/VDS.

Summary of weapon systems:
1 x 76mm gun
1 x SA-N-12 SAM (VLS) system
2-4 x Kashtan CIWS system
2 x 8-cel "Klub" VLS system
1 x UDAV-1 ASW system with 2-4 x KT-153 MLR launchers
2 x Ka-28 ASW Helicopters

In this version the ship will be equipped with 2 x 8-cel Klub VLS system, similiar (but slightly shorter/smaller) to the 3S14E. Ideally this should be an "unfiied" VLS system that can use 3M54E1 AShM, 3M-14E LACM, and 91RE2 ASW Missile:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Klub.html

The 3S14E is designed to launch the larger (8.22 meter) 3M-54E and Brahmos AShM missile. Our VLS system will be smaller (shorter) version to accomodate the 3M-54E1, 3M-14E, and 91RE2 which are 6.2 to 6.5 meters long. All these missiles are from same family and originally designed for 533mm torpedo tubes.

If a "common VLS" is not avail, then we can dedicated 1 x 8-cel VLS system to the 91RE2 ASW missile, and the other to 3M54E1 AShM and/or 3M-14E LACM.

The Russian UDAV-1 ASW system will have 2-4 x KT-154 MLRS with 111SG ASW Rocket, 111SZ mine-laying/torpedo-barrier rocket, and 111SO decoy rockets. This system can be used for ASW, anti-torpedo, and anti-diver. However since this system is mostly ASW only, we should prolly consider adding 1-2 chaff dispensers vs. AShM's, just in case.

The CFX-II will have its 76mm gun installed in the front, followed by 2 x 8-cel VLS. In the aft section we'll install the SA-N-12 SAM system, as well as helicopter deck and hanger for 2 ASW helicopters, plus extended deck space for towed sonar & decoy.

The rest of the araments (MLRS, CIWS) will go wherever we can find room. Preferably we'd like to install the Kashtan system in front and aft, or possiby even 4 x Kashtan systems instead of 2. But if there's insufficient space, then 2 systems to the sides will do.

tphuang

I actually really like the current set up of 054A. Now, 054 is 3600 in standard displacement and 3900 in maximum displacement. I would probably want to bump that up to 4100 and 4500. Anyhow, the current 8 YJ-83 series AShM should be enough.

For ASW:
1 ASW helicopter with dipping sonar
Bow mounted sonar
hull mounted sonar
towed array sonar
China should already have all of the above. It's just a matter of how much money they are willing to commit.
2 triple 533 or 324 mm torpedo tubes
MLRS launching antisubmarine rockets and decoys
some kind of ASROC, although not sure what's available.

Air defense (pla seems to emphasize this, so I will add to it).
HH-16/HH-7 common VLS with HH-16 handling medium range and HH-7 handling short range (32 HH-16 an 16 HH-7)
2 Type 730 CIWS
a 2D phased array search radar and a 3D phased array tracking radar
appropriate number of illuminators
that Chinese version of Aegis

SA-N-12 in my mind is simply too heavy, takes up too much space to fit into a 4000-4500 tonne frigate

adeptitus

The INS Talwar-class frigate (3,250 ton empty, 4,025 ton loaded) has a Shtil-1 SAM system with traditional 3S-90 SAM launcher with 24 x 9M317 missiles, plus 4 x MR-90 Orekh directors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talwar_class_frigate

If they replace the 3M-54E AShM missiles with 91RE2 ASW missiles, then add a towed sonar array, the Talwar would make a decent ASW platform.

As for ASROC missiles, to best of my knowledge, the following may be avail from Russia:
91RE2 Klub-N
RPK-6 Vodopad (SS-N-16 Stallion)
RPK-2 Viyuga (SS-N-15 Starfish)
RPK-3 Metel/RPK-4 Musson (SS-N-14 Silex)
RPK-9

The Russian/Soviet Navy had a good collection of ASW missiles and rockets. The above is a short list of ASW missile systems that has "surface" variants for surface ships.

Some als have "dual role" capability, the same system (but not necessarily the same warhead/payload) can be used for both ASW and AShM roles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-N-16

tphuang

hmm, I was talking about VLU Shtil. Not sure, how much space it takes to fit a 24 cell VLU shtil, but each VLU shtil is 580 kg according to the Russians. If you look at Taknami, it has a 32 cell ESSM VLS. And each ESSM should be in the 200 - 250 kg range? HH-16 was mentionned as not much heavier than HH-7 on a Chinese forum, so I believe they can be both fit into a common VLS. One does area defense, one does close-in defense against AShM. And then, you have the final layer of 2 type 730. That's quite a heavily defended ship.

adeptitus

Hi Tphuang,

I attached a couple of pics with specs on the VLS system. It looks like the missile weight with container is 1040 kg each, and they come in 2x6 arrangement. It occured to me that on the 054A model, the VLS system in the front appears to have 2 sets of 2x6 VLS cels. Perhaps the model maker was emulating the Russian VLS system.

With 24 missiles, that's about 25 metric tons?

tphuang

I'm not experienced enough analyzing ship structures and such, but I would think sticking 25 metric tons in the area where 054A has the VLS right now will be a lot. Anyways, I'm saying that you can put 32 HH-16 and 16 HH-7 (or 24 and 8 if you only want 32 cells) in the same location that would give better protection and might not even take as much space.
with 16 HH-7, that's probably equivalent to the mass of 2 or 3 shtil missile and the length of HH-7 is about half of shtil.

Thinking back to 052C vs 051C, 051C is probably slightly larger, but 052C has the same number of VLS cells, heavier AShM, more advanced sensor and a hangar.

planeman

How's about this?



I've ditched the main gun as a sad concession to size/weight and to allow a large quantity of anti-ship/anti-sub missiles in the form of a 25 cell SS-N-27 Klub VLS (any combo of missiles).

Further forward is a 30 cell SA-N-12 SAM VLS - I chose this because it is already in PLAN service.

Two Type-730 CIWS's complete the weapons fit (plus lightweight torpedos?).

Ahead of the bridge the chaff/flare dispensers are made stealthy.

A single helicopter (Helix?) is housed in a conventional hanger with aft helipad. A towed sonar is fitted.


I suppose if you really wanted to fit a main gun, you could reduce the qquantity of SS-N-27 cells, allowing the SA-N-12 to be relocated onto the raised foredeck just in front of the SS-N-27 complex. This would allow a 100mm gun to be mounted where the SA-N-12 previously was:

Gollevainen

Nice...

But they seems to be bit too small...If you are about to do a "dream frigates", why to pinch on the size? Bigger hull, more internal volume, better race and "growth capability".

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snake65

Ideal PLAN frigate

Attached Images

korvet_XXI.jpg (27.2 KB, 58 views)

Gollevainen

thats nice, drew it yourself

or was this mídle of Novik and 22830???

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