Ideal chinese carrier thread

[planeman]

[bd popeye]

Intresting Planeman..But could you please explain the functionality of this ship.

[planeman]

It's primary fuinctionality is that it floats. On water mostly. This functionality is very important!



This deck layout is 20m longer than CDG and about 5m wider. The Su-33s make it look small.

[bd popeye]

Ok so now we know it floats...Looks ok but I see a flaw..
Those elevators(lifts) should be on the deck edge. Otherwise they will interfere with flight operations and delete your hangar space.

[Jeff Head]

Does China have any carriers in service yet or are they still working on them?

None in service.

One being refitted, the Varyag, which was the old Russian carrier and sister ship to the Kuznetsov.

Here's a couple of pics of her in the Dalian shipyards:





A lot of good info on the Varyag : HERE

[planeman]

Does anyone have detailed breakdown of the typical (not max) air wing of a US super-carrier? Also CDG.

I'm compiling a graphical comparison of conventional carrier's air wings, which is already an illuminating exercise.

[Roger604]

So..Now we know that the PLAN now has access to shipyard that can build an aircraft carrier of some type. I really do wish the PLAN was not so secreretive and would give us a hint about what they will do about their "phantom" CV program.

I think work on an LHD will start right away. It will be helped by the experienced gained from Type 071. Just like the Type 071 was designed with cues from San Antonio, I expect this LHD (on this forum it's been speculated to be Type 081) to take cues from the Wasp class and the Japanese Hyuga class. Maybe something in the 30,000 ton range -- capable of carrying 30 helicopters. I expect a navalized WZ-10 to be in-the-works now.

I expect this ship (maybe even a pair together) to be in the water within 2 years (first half of 2010) and start operating a year after that.

After the first (maybe pair) of Type 081 is finished, the Jiangnan Shipyard will begin to build a wholly indigenous carrier (maybe a pair), something in the 50-60,000 ton range. I expect it to take design cues from the Nimitz, a very successful design. Since China's naval flanker is just about ready for production, the crew will be able to train for carrier operations first.

The carrier (maybe Type 091?) will be launched around 2013. Meanwhile, serial production would have already taken place for the destroyer escort (probably the one we are seeing taking shape now) and the next generation SSN, so the carrier can achieve limited operations shortly after launch.

I expect that by 2015, the first carrier group (or maybe even a pair) will be fully operational.

Varyag never made it to any stage (despite original intentions -- that's why the naval flankers are ready so early) because too many difficulties were found to make it even minimally useful.

[bd popeye]

Does anyone have detailed breakdown of the typical (not max) air wing of a US super-carrier? Also CDG.

I'm compiling a graphical comparison of conventional carrier's air wings, which is already an illuminating exercise.
[qimg]http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/3888/carrierairwingscomparedje4.png[/qimg]

The typical USN CV Air wing now consist of;

48 F/A-18 Hornets and Super Hornets Strike/fighter
4 E/A-6Bs Prowlers ECM/attack
4 E-2C Hawkeyes Early warning radar
6+ SH-60 variants ASW/SAR..As many as 12 have been deployed.
2 C-2 Greyhounds logistic suppourt.
That's 64 aircraft

An Nimitz class can easily carry 90 aircraft. When the F-35C comes into operational service around 2012 expect to see squadrons of 10-12 assigned to CVN air wings.

[adeptitus]

let's put it this way, we haven't seen any picture of any new ships this year. It's almost like they stopped construction just to minimize the China fear ahead of the Olympics. I haven't had any material to post on my blog for a long time now.

I'm inclined to think that the high cost of hosting the Olympics had to come from somewhere... military procurement maybe?

I think last estimate was $42 billion dollars?

[bd popeye]

Roger, in your opinion do you think the Varyag will ever be operational?? In any mode..either training or operational? If so what will become of the Varyag??

[PrOeLiTeZ]

OK since Im not as experienced and well knowledged as some of the veterans in this forum, I wont make and presumptions or assumptions. From the Chinese military discussions forum that Ive been discussing to with mainland China. The Varyag has seem to be halted in its refurbish phase. It is indeed haltered in exterior refurbishment but it doesn't neccessarly mean that the Varyag has stopped all together.

It may seem this from public view but, alot of personals have been seen going onto the dock but aren't visible anyway on the surface of the Varyag. Possible reasons??? Many have thought and are highly pointing the likelyhood of high activity within the Varyag. The re-wiring of the system, engines, electronics, lights, pipes, mechanism, etc...all internal areas. While it seems that Varyag has stopped refurbish stage for the Olympics to avoid possibly political outcries, they moved their reburishment to the interior.

These are opinions or thoughts of me and other mainland Chinese military posters.

In my view it'll be easier to start from the ground up, then to repair a ship of that size. Repairing the ship they got to examine it, inspect how the ship is laid out, materials, problemed areas, methods of repairing, repairing. All this consumes a lot of time......Just a thought from me ^.^

[planeman]

more doodling. And some calcs.


At 360m long and 100m wide this would have substantially more deck space than a Nimitz (340m long by 78m wide).

Yet it'd displace only about 50,000 metric ton. The pink box in the top pic, if it had an average depth of 8m (suggesting 9m draught compared to 12m on Nimitz) would displace 43,000t of sea water (1025kg p/m3 if anyone cares).

The hanger is probably a fair bit larger than Nimitz too.

The problem is that the Su-33 has a pretty big footprint even with the wings folded. I think a new fighter aircraft is in order.

BTW, I think Rafale looks very good compared to all other carrier fighters when considering footprint vs capability.

[Obi Wan Russell]

Whilst I certainly agree that it is easier to start with a 'blank page' in carrier design, the Chinese will gain immense experience in carrier design and construction from refitting Varyag, she is where their engineers will learn the practicalities of getting such a large warship ready for service. Better they do it on her than learn the hard way with their firat purpose built design. Similarly, the Russians are doing the same thing with the Vikramaditya, using her refit as a training program for the shipyard workers to prepare them for the future Russian Carrier program (remember all previous Russian carriers were built in the Ukraine, so Russia has lost all that experience). In this respect Varyag already is a training carrier, ie she is training engineers in the dos and don'ts of carrier construction. There will be plenty for them to do below decks away from prying eyes for the next year or two whilst attention is elsewhere.

[mxiong]

Nothing to see here. Move along.

[Totoro]

Planeman, it seems all that size and storage space in your idea couldn't be put to full use. Huge deck, vast hangar, etc - all in a 50.000 ton carrier. Just how much bfuel, ordenance and other cargo could such a vessel varry? I would think its range would be rather small short... Anyway, how did you get to 50.000 ton displacement and 9 m draft figures?