How can and How should PLAN improve it self?

I think they need to have around 4 aircraft carriers the size of varag. They need more multirole destroyer and frigates. At least 4 more each. They need to get a few more nuclear submarines. They should upgrade 167 shenzhen to an air defense destroyer.

If they're looking for improvements, I say PLAN should focus on completing the Type 093 submarine and field them in sufficient numbers. That would be a big boost to overall naval capability for PLAN.

Also finish the Type 054 FFG. Improve ASW in the Type 054. Maybe make that the sole focus of the platform.

The PLAN needs to raise its coodination capability, allowing the fleet to support each other. Also, the PLAN needs to develop a powerful core that can act as an expeditionary force with a small carrier or two. To defned China's increasingly global economic interests.

I think that PLAN should improve blue water capabilities, increase number of fleet support ships, finish carrier, build 2-4 LHD ships and create Hi – low mix modern surface combatants whit type052 DDGs and type054 FFG… Focus on multirole ships and not waste resources on backup designs like type051c… Reduce number of different types of ships and equipment because that would simplify training and logistics… Improve ASW capabilities and try to improve ship replenishment at sea…
PLAN should also improve training; ships should spend more time on sea...

They should upgrade 167 shenzhen to an air defense destroyer.

Good idea. the design of the forward area of 167 clearly implies that VLS was meant to be fitted. But perhaps the missle system wasnt ready yet. But now it is.

I say PLAN should focus on completing the Type 093 submarine and field them in sufficient numbers

The first two are already in service. But the rate of production is really slow. We might only see 6 or less. by the end of the decade.

The PLAN needs to raise its coodination capability, allowing the fleet ot cat together

Definitely.

Focus on multirole ships and not waste resources on backup designs like type051c

The 51c is nto a backup design. Its a highly effective yet cost saving air-defence weapon for the morth sea fleet. The PLAN is probably not ready for more 52c style units yet.

increase number of fleet support ships

Since the commision of the Qiandaohu class, we havnt seen any further units under construction. Anyone know why?

IMO, the PLAN should strip the Luda's and Jiangweis of all their guns and missles and turn them into dedicated ASW platforms, with advanced sonar centers and towed sonar. Also fit several ASW rockets on them ,as well as torpedoes. Give each a helicopter deck to land z-9c's.

Originally Posted by MIGleader

The 51c is nto a backup design. Its a highly effective yet cost saving air-defence weapon for the morth sea fleet. The PLAN is probably not ready for more 52c style units yet.

I assume that development of 2 AAW DDG classes, whit one using state of the art but still unproven Chinese indigenous systems and other on old hull whit imported Russian systems does not look like backup to you? As for saving costs PLAN could build 6 052c DDG instead of 3 different classes and by doing so lower the unit costs… Now consider future units of 052c class and you may assume that unit price could be louvered significantly…

Originally Posted by MIGleader

IMO, the PLAN should strip the Luda's and Jiangweis of all their guns and missles and turn them into dedicated ASW platforms, with advanced sonar centers and towed sonar. Also fit several ASW rockets on them ,as well as torpedoes. Give each a helicopter deck to land z-9c's.

Well if we look at money spend in Luda's modernization and age of those ships I personally think that they should be replaced by type054 FFG whit improved ASW capabilities and retired in next 10 years…
As for Jiangweis they are useful for patrol and OPV roles only…
Striping this ships current equipment and installing modern ASW equipment only would be expensive and insufficient use of limited resources PLAN has… It would be much better if China would use type054 FFG for that role…

Not to mention that modern navies don’t use single role ships but prefer modern multirole ships which can be used for different types of missions without depending on other ships for defenses…

I assume that development of 2 AAW DDG classes, whit one using state of the art but still unproven Chinese indigenous systems and other on old hull whit imported Russian systems does not look like backup to you? As for saving costs PLAN could build 6 052c DDG instead of 3 different classes and by doing so lower the unit costs… Now consider future units of 052c class and you may assume that unit price could be louvered significantly…

Construction of the 51c class began in 2004, when the 52c's had just been completed. The PLAN still wanted some time to test out the new sensors and weapons of the 52c. Yet, they wanted a quick solution to provide capable air-defence to the north sea fleet, which was seriourly lacking in modern warships at the time. So the PLAN salvaged an older but proven design and fitted it some russian weapons as a solution. I have no doubt we will see construction of a 52c follow-up very soon.

Not to mention that modern navies don’t use single role ships but prefer modern multirole ships which can be used for different types of missions without depending on other ships for defenses…

The big man G will say otherwise.
Take this quote from one PM he sent me:

Multirole are poor excuse of smaller navyes in order to match the financical limitations of the defence budgets. Beeing multirole means that the ship isent ideal platform to neither of the three main function of surface ships, ASuW, ASW or AAW. Big navyes like USN, RN and VMF have been able to produce dedicated ships to each purpose and gain the maxium advantage of the known technology. It allows the fleet to operate in all fields whitout need of taking priorities.

So if you question that, debate HIM, not me.
Since the PLAN is really lacking of ASW, giving a facelift to the ludas would serve as a good near-term solution, while a more advnaced dedicated vessel can be built later.

before there even was any sinodefence site, and Luhai was just commisioned there was rumours and reports that second ship was building. And it would eventually be fitted with long desired modern SAM system, propriate to the size of the ships. 115 was that ship and usually I tend to cross year 1997 of beeing the year when it begun to build. Who knows why it has taken so long to complete, but i would back up whit Istvanh that it is a mere back up desing...or more propeply an opportunity to add another modern AAW ship to the fleet that despretly needs them. Maybe it is some indicate that chinese made SAMs in 052Cs arent att all statisfactory and need of russian help is required...but i guess no one hopes that it would be true

116 in otherhand exist in only some very dubious pictures released in internet. (read= faked photoshop)

Anyway, as for the topic (wich is like volume 35 in sinodefence forum's 1.5 year existence) I would go on whit the lines of making "mass-producaple" products out of the most intresting desings, Yuan, 093 and 054. this would adequotely repair most inferiorityes of PLAN in manner that wouldnt be too complicate, but not yet too short sited solutions. In the past PLAN has managed to compensate its obsolence and lack of adequte technical know-how in naval devolpment by consentrating one field and master it. That has resulted almoust suprisingly top of the notch SSMs compared to overal status of the fleet. One migth argue wheter that was good solution or not, but in the future, china has not afford to continue in this route..

but then there is the political burden of becoming a blue water navy whit power protection capapility. This needs essentially fleet whit standing capapility and make chinese naval presence of something else than joke or nostalgic memory lane feeling, like the recent sending of Jiangweis and Ludas to the disputed japanese oil fields. But most of all it needs carrier and fleet able to protect the carrier....and unfortuanetly this is out of reach of curent chinese fleet. But then again, carrier operations needs almoust decades of heritage of the operations whit aircraft in the sea...and China cannot waste anytime if it wants to field them in some time in the future. So making Varyag operational should be number one goal to PLAN. No matter wheter there would be nice looking CBG ready at the time of its service deput or not. As long as china can att least toy around whit some sort of carrier is irreplaceable for chinese. the CBG comes along when there is enough carriers to use them as strategical operational units, one wont sufficent.

or more propeply an opportunity to add another modern AAW ship to the fleet that despretly needs them

That is my idea, not istvans.

116 in otherhand exist in only some very dubious pictures released in internet. (read= faked photoshop)

116 is not fake. Its real enough for Dongfeng to include it in his website. and it is VERY difficult to get dongfeng to add stuff to his webiste because he always searches for concrete proof before doing so. Perhaps he read something in a chiense article confirming 116. logically, why would the PLAN buy two rif-m's for just one ship?

there was rumours and reports that second ship was building

I think a second ship WAS building, but it was scrapped before it was ever completed.
1. Dalian might not be advanced enough to handle the 52b/c desgin
2. rather than make a whole new design, the PLAN just gave it's next advanced desing to dalian to build.

China don't simply introduct new equipments until they meet the requirements, that why there was only one 167 and in other case such as Song. I think China understand that whatever they were going to built in mass numbers would simply obstacles by western standard by the time they were ready, so it just don't make sense unless they had something that are more closer to the Western standard.

Unlike the Air force, PLAN didn't had the resources until recent years. So they were forced to give up on Surface Warships Platforms, and focus on subs. But things are changing now, since China could afford to allocate more funds, that why they began to presue the once abandon and postpone projects. Varyag has been an on going debate in the PLA, since one of the most influential PLA leader was rejected his request for Aircraft carrier groups by PM at that time, but since he had convinced and still have supporters in PLA high ranking general. The AC project did not dead, so what we are seeing now are continue of what once delayed. 168 or Varyag are just catching between and filling the gad for the PLAN.

I think it is too early to suggest that 52C are not sucessful or as good as hope for, China do tend to take times to built first two test ships before making big orders. But we should have a more clear idea in a year or two, when 54A and 52D should be coming out. If they didn't, then there might be some dissatisfication of 52C.

I didn't posted in the Whatever out of control USvsChina thread, but in here I would want to point out that PLAN is no where the level with USSR in 1990. If you really bother to do research on USSR navy, you should know that USSR were on par with US. China simply don't have power and project capability of USSR, we don't have many modern warships and subs as USSR did in 1990. You guys might tend to underestimate USSR since you are too young to remember or read in late 80 or early 90 about military, but I would tell you that eventhrough many Americans wanted to say they were superior than USSR(maybe in quality but definite not quatantity). That is simply not true, if USSR and Us really fought a war in 1990 I would assure you that there would be no winner. But China do enjoy many advantages that USSR don't have, China have more resources and stronger econmies than USSR. China also had one billion more people, maybe some members here would say otherwise. But I will certainly believe that one billion more people do make a difference in war, also don't forget we have better environment than USSR and there are few things that China did surpass USSR.

I think many members might be overconfidence that US would simply could deploy military capabilities in time of crisis, but no one should underestimate China's rapid deploy capablity especially China are only 100 miles from Taiwan and also China are the one who should initial the attack. And China only needed to hold off US forces as long as possible, of course the one million dollars question would be could China defeated Taiwan in days or weeks or never .

Sorry Golly and Mods just can't resist to make my replied.

OFF TOPIC IS RIGHT!! LET US ALL REFRAIN FROM THIS USA Vs PRC or comparisons to the SOVIET NAVY..GENTLEMEN STAY ON SUBJECT!!!

bd popeye moderator

Originally Posted by MIGleader

The big man G will say otherwise.
Take this quote from one PM he sent me:
So if you question that, debate HIM, not me.

No matter whit who I debate… For example look at new Arleigh Burke DDGs… They are modern multirole ships that do not lack any capabilities in any area of naval warfare…
So you can also say that single role ships are for those navies that can not afford multirole ships that can do all that tasks equally good :-D

Originally Posted by MIGleader

Since the PLAN is really lacking of ASW, giving a facelift to the ludas would serve as a good near-term solution, while a more advnaced dedicated vessel can be built later.

Like I said investing all that money and work on ship that was obsolete on drawing board and is recently modernized so it could be useful for few more years would be plain dumb…
You would get single role ship, unable for self-defense from any other threat then subs…
It would be far more useful to spend this founds for quicker interdiction of more improved 054 ffgs in fleet…

Originally Posted by isthvan

No matter whit who I debate… For example look at new Arleigh Burke DDGs… They are modern multirole ships that do not lack any capabilities in any area of naval warfare…
So you can also say that single role ships are for those navies that can not afford multirole ships that can do all that tasks equally good :-D

Yes, i was wondering about that. But no, the arleigh burkes are multirole, but at a cost. They provide superior air defence, but have minimal Anti-ship ability of their own. A single burke cannot be counted on to provide ASW for the enitre fleet.

Originally Posted by isthvan

Like I said investing all that money and work on ship that was obsolete on drawing board and is recently modernized so it could be useful for few more years would be plain dumb…
You would get single role ship, unable for self-defense from any other threat then subs…
It would be far more useful to spend this founds for quicker interdiction of more improved 054 ffgs in fleet…

You misunderstand me. Im not saying modernize the luda's as an alternative to building more 54;s, im saying upgrade the luda's as a complement to building more 54s.

Originally Posted by MIGleader

Yes, i was wondering about that. But no, the arleigh burkes are multirole, but at a cost. They provide superior air defence, but have minimal Anti-ship ability of their own. A single burke cannot be counted on to provide ASW for the enitre fleet.

Since it can carry Harpoons and anti-ship version of Tomahawks I wouldn’t call its anti-ship capabilities minimal… As for ASW no ship alone cant provide ASW for entire fleet but you must agree that A.B. has damn good ASW (ASORC and six (two triple) 324mm Mk 32 Mod 14 torpedo tubes plus SH-60 helicopter)…

Originally Posted by MIGleader

You misunderstand me. Im not saying modernize the luda's as an alternative to building more 54;s, im saying upgrade the luda's as a complement to building more 54s.

Ok, but still… Investing more money on Ludas joust wouldn’t make sense… Modernize Luhu and Luhai, maybe even Jingweis (to get ship at least to Knox level ASW capabilities) but Ludas are joust to old...

Originally Posted by isthvan

Since it can carry Harpoons and anti-ship version of Tomahawks I wouldn’t call its anti-ship capabilities minimal… As for ASW no ship alone cant provide ASW for entire fleet but you must agree that A.B. has damn good ASW (ASORC and six (two triple) 324mm Mk 32 Mod 14 torpedo tubes plus SH-60 helicopter)…

On normal missions, the burke carries only harpoons. Which is fine, given its primary mission normally is to escort the carrier and provide fleet air defence. If the burke were to load some tomahawks, it would have to lose some standards. (then thers always essm quadpacks)

Originally Posted by isthvan

Ok, but still… Investing more money on Ludas joust wouldn’t make sense… Modernize Luhu and Luhai, maybe even Jingweis (to get ship at least to Knox level ASW capabilities) but Ludas are joust to old...

yeah, good point. Perhaps only the four original jiangweis(not jiangwei II's) can be converted to dedicated ASW platforms. Similar might go for the jianghu-V's, which are pretty new compared with the rest of the jianghus.