The Future of the PLAN Marine Corps

i don't really agree much on focusing resources in developing the marine corp.

there are still problems within the major services, having an effective marine is useless if the rest of the services can't keep up with the operational needs. there are limited airlift capabilities, limited naval superiority required to cover their back, even the best expedition force will crack under a week if it doesn't get supported.

i think they will hold on expanding it until they got the logistic and support capability to back them. a strong airforce and navy is far more important at this point of time.

I would like the marines to get their own dedicated support assets. Their only means of current transportation are via PLAN ships and helicopters. They are also dependent on the PLA(N)AF for air support.

So before thinking about expanding it's marine corps, China has to make amends to the defficient areas.
How?
1. Give the marines their own force of z-8s for transport and supply missions. Chinas future ka-29s are almost guarenteed to be for the marines.

2. Its difficult deciding what kind of other aviation assets the marines need. A few j-8F's for air cover and jh-7As for ground support should be adequate for now.

3. Transfer control of all the navies LSTs and ther transports to the marine corps.

4. Lastly, I would like to see the marines get soem body armor. They are well-trained soldiers, and it would be a shame to lose any.

Well I don’t think that PLAN needs to expand Marine Corps… I agree whit akinkhoo that PLAN will hold on expanding it until they got the logistic and support capability to back them… For now current strength is quite sufficient...

I believe that PLAN marines should change unit structure, moving from current brigade structure to something similar to USMC MEU. That would greatly improve Marines quick reaction capabilities, enabling more flexible tactical usage…

To accomplish that marines would need there one helicopter unit whit Ka-29 and Mi-171 for transport and WZ-9 for combat support (WZ-10 should replace WZ-9 as soon as possible). Also Marines should get dedicated artillery support (comparable to M777a1 howitzer), better armor support, advanced C3i systems etc.

PLAN would had to procure few LPH/LPD class ships to maintain forward-deployed MEUs in possible threat zones whit current LST ships used for amphibious training and Taiwan scenario backup (LST could be used for reinforcing initial landing forces).

The USMC has 180,000 active + 40,000 reserves. The current PLAN Marines force is no where near that size to have its own major air/naval assets.

Rather than spend PLA's limited buget to expand the size of PLAN marines, I think the $ is better spent to improve its deployement capabilities, via amphibious assault & helicopter insertion. For an example, the PLAN could operate helicopter flat-tops and use it to deploy PLAN marines. This would be useful for peace keeping, disaster relief, evacuation, etc. to gain valuable deployement experience.

Well it seems to me that currently PLAN marines are pretty much comparable to Soviet naval infantry (organization and tactics), but unfortunately PLAN currently can’t provide same level of deployment capabilities as Soviet navy could provide to Soviet naval infantry.

If we look at PLAN amphibious assets we can see that PLAN has nothing comparable to Soviet Ivan Rogov class large landing ships not the mention western LPH/LPD ships( or new S. Korean amphibious ships)…

If PLAN intends to use marines as pure amphibious assault force then current organization is quite sufficient but if they plan to transform them into expeditionary force then reorganization is badly needed…

Now as I posted previously they don’t need to expand Marine corp. but reorganization similar too USMC MEU would be quite welcomed… Smaller units are more flexible and incorporating some helicopter, armor and artillery support elements in same units (MEU) provides flexibility, intensifies and simplifies training and provides more capable expeditionary units…

I’m not saying that PLAN marines should have there one aviation corps but rather that PLAN gives control of helicopters which Marines would use anyway…
PLAN should build and operate LPD type ships but marines would have control of helicopters on those ships…

As I said this before forward deployed MEU type units would greatly improve all PLAN expeditionary capabilities (including peace kipping missions, evacuation and disaster relief capabilities).

Naval transports are a BIG thing. currently, China only has the ability to transport a maximum of one division to taiwan for a preliminary assault. So a 12,000 man marine corps is all that they can handle.

Now, we see many LSTs under construction, as well as deals for russian Zubrs. when more transports become available, the marine coprs can be expanded.

I suppose your right. I think that the Varyag will end up supporting the Marine Corps operations, as it is very well suited to that task.

Whoa! Hold your horses people.

Firstly, look at PLA Marine's mission...

For starters, it is not for deploying around the world as yet, though in the next few decades this will change (and I hope so too)...

PLA Marines were formed as a force that could efficiently protect and capture small islands especially the troubled Spratleys. Second of all, Marines will probably form the spearhead of the elite PLA forces in any Taiwan landing scenario.

PLA Marines were NOT formed as such to tackle the world, to deploy half way around the world and deal with troubled spots or be ready to take on any opponent any day. Of course that is what we would like to see for a Chinese Marine corps, but think about it, they have more problematic things to deal with in the immediate vicinity...Taiwan, Spratleys, Island chains.

Though I agree PLAN lacks the ocean going capabilities with a lack of LPH and LPD, it is in no way defficient of transport!

To the common viewer, 12,000 and 900 vehicle lift by current landing ship force is small for a PLA that has 1.5 million men. But people are not counting all the support assets available, all the civilian ships and army/air force ships that could be utilized in transport role...when these are all counted, PLA actually could mount quite a sizeable force (I am not sure how big, but I believe over 24,000, as many as 60,000.

Civilian ships for marines? Ha thats a joke right? No. Royal Navy in Falklands war, despite sending its two carriers and specialised LPDs still had to rely on civilian freight efforts for logistics and transport support. US Navy too depends on civilian shipping for transport, so every navy in some ways finds use of civilian shipping, not just PLAN because China is so 'budget'.

The Soviet Navy did not have such great transport either...

4 Ivan Rogevs...that is a short cry compared to the dozens of Tarawa and Iwo Jimas around of the USN.

I regard PLAN's LSTs of Yuting/II quite up there, perhaps better than most designs in the world with higher carrying capacity, probably second to the US Newport class. With a force of nearly 24 of these, plus the 7 YUkans and God knows how many LSMs and LCUs, that is the world's second largest functioning amphib group. Its only weakness is ocean going capabilities. Though in my opinion, the YUtings with their avaiation support capability, are probably well capable of supporting minor operations in the Western Pacific (not fighting hardcore US, but more like taking on peacekeeping, humanitarian missions in micronesia and melanesia). With tanker support it is possible. Its just not practised yet...

Anyway, sorry for those corrections.

Now PLA Marines of the future.


Though it is not expanding as much and still not possessing its own air and sea assets, I think it has been experimenting and acquiring quite a bit.

COnsidering the force of marines in the 80s and early 90s only possessed old Type 63, Type 62 tanks, and Type 77 Amphib APCs, and a bunch of junkies operating Type 81 rifles, the force that is emerging from the late 90s is in a way the future Marine corps.

Type 63A amphib tanks, Type 89 SP Artillery, and several types of APC than just one, that is quite a diversity of modern firepower in the hands of the small Marine Corps.

We've seen more exercises using helicopters and the marines have utilized LCPT (Landing Cushion Personnel Transport), though it is still in its infancy comparing to modern LCVPs.

In addition, PLA Marines have not been ignorant in the field of swimming capabilities for their vehicles. Its made many attempts to make up for the shortcomings of basic amphib vehicles, trying many ways to increasing swimming speeds and ranges. Of course, far from the advanced amphibious vehicles the US Marines will possess, but at least the PLA Marines are experimenting around and have made some mods to their APCs.

The Marines in addition have made tradtional use of artillery and ATGMs. Only as technology improves with the HJ8/9 and newer forms of SP guns, the Marines are improving in this aspect. I mean, compared to the marines China had before the mid 1990s, at least now its made the leap to possess SP Artillery in the form of Type 89.

The Marines were never last in line to receive equipment. They constantly receive the best training and equipment down to man level, including the Type 95 rifles. PLA leadership will never neglect the marines, but will keep it at its top priority.

In addition, we also see the marines with AA capabilities with Crotale SAMs, man portables, and the new Type 95 SPAAG. This is a far cry from the former use of mannual 37mms and 12.7mms.

This i believe will be the marine corps of the future for China. It has really come from an infantry group, to one that possessed armour, to one that possess infantry, armour and logistics support....and in 2006...we now see a Marine corps fully mechanized with the ability to perform a stirling variety of roles.

The marines in 50 years time...with the intro of LPDs...maybe the same elements...but just jumping all over the world. In addition, we can hope to see a PLAM aviation unit.

The PLAN Marines could definately use a helicopter carrier of some sort. The Varyag could fufill that function once China has a more advanced indigenous carrier. As for other equipment, the PLAN Marines are pretty well off, but obviously their going to need more ampihbious capability. ATGMs are a big part of their arsenal because of the dangerousness of a Taiwanese counterattack on landing beaches (see the Taiwan MBT thread.)

I thnk the question for the PLAN Marines is do they want to become like the Royal Marines, a small elite ampibious force that can get ashore and conduct limited operations without much trouble or like the US Marine Corps, which is the world's biggest Marine Corps, operates MBTs and could crush the militaries of most of the worlds countries but is very tough to move around and deploy, and is not as...elite. That's the choice. I think that the PLAN Marine Corps will choose a combination of both, but more toward the Royal Marine option. China is large, so it's force must be big, but I don't think that it will have the capability to move lots of tanks all over the world and have its own air force any time soon, like the US Marines.

I think it would be easier and better to conduct elite forces like the royal marines. Technology will not have to be developed to help bring tanks or whatever like the USMC do but i think the reason the royal marines size is so small is because its relative to their population, their training is extremely high and pass rates are quite low, this low pass rate continues with SOF such as the SAS, but since China has a large population, it could perhaps have quite a large elite force, although this is merely all probability, and it may not happen this way.

I think we are forgetting the political implications of all this.

If China wanted to build up a multi-divisional marine corps then it can do it quite easily, LPH's are actually easier to build than some of the advanced destroyers that China is currently producing. The problem with building up a marine corps of that size is that other countries get the impression that you are adopting an expansionist foreign policy, simply because large marine corps are only ever required by countries with aggressive foreign policies (Read USA)

China is trying very hard to be the good boy on the block so it is not in their interest to provoke the USA or Japan at the present time. In the future where China is on par with the United States in military power then it may be wise to expand the Marine Corps but untill then it is better to concentrate on building up other parts of the military such as C4I, better training, AWACS, tanker capability, better transport capabilities and rotor wing assets as well as professionalising a larger component of the army and further reducing the militia and reservist components.

The last thing that China wants is to give the USA the right to start causing trouble based on the fact that China is looking more and more like a global security threat.