FFG 054/054A Thread

[crobato]

Frigates have their own "baby AEGIS" (SPY-1D), so you can have phase array scaled to a frigate's needs. I don't consider the use of Orekh style illuminators to be a lasting feature, and the 054 design is intended for the long run. Somewhere down the line, the use of a small phase array four face set would have to go into the 054 series.

I have two configurations. The first is to raise the superstructure and fit two arrays. The other two arrays will be installed on the modified rear mast.

The second configuration is to put two arrays on the main mast, two on the rear mast.

[szbd]

Originally Posted by tphuang

They all had Sea Eagle. Whether they were on floating dock or not is irrelevant.

What? 054A defending against cruise missiles? Do you know what you are talking about at all?

If a ship can defend against AShW missiles, why it can not defend cruiser missiles?

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by szbd

If a ship can defend against AShW missiles, why it can not defend cruiser missiles?

There are too many reasons here, but let's just give you a simple one:
If the range of HH-16 against low altitude missiles is 20 km (and I think that's even overstated), what do you think is the likelihood that a cruise missile will happen to go by the 20 km radius under its coverage?

[backwindow]

Some new pics about VL

[szbd]

Originally Posted by tphuang

There are too many reasons here, but let's just give you a simple one:
If the range of HH-16 against low altitude missiles is 20 km (and I think that's even overstated), what do you think is the likelihood that a cruise missile will happen to go by the 20 km radius under its coverage?

Cruiser missiles fly higher than AShW missiles.

I thought of that. What I think is, PLAN will have some ships patroling close to the coast anyway. And it is better to have those ships to have the ability of defending cruiser missiles. 1 054A is close to or probability better than the ability of a Tor M1 battalion.

Because I don't understand why PLAN waste so much money in recent 10 years. It seems what they want is as many air defense ships as possible. Every type of new ship has drawbacks. The 2 last sovs and 052Bs are actually not necessary if you can build 052C in only a few years. And you only build sth like 051C when you badly need some float AAM station but had no other choice in 2-3 years. While 054A is better, but do you have to build it in such a hurry? the first one even doesn't have number yet now you have 4 in the water. And, 054A is not perfect either.

So, what I think is PLAN want an air defense line before 2008, it's a firm order from the top and they had no choice but more and more ships, anything can shoot an air target at >20km.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by szbd

Cruiser missiles fly higher than AShW missiles.

doesn't matter, the TLAM travel low enough that the engagement distance is not going to change much. Any you should think about more importantly the difference between defending against the two types of missiles. In one case, you know the missile is coming at you or another ship, in the second case, you have no idea where the missile is going.

I thought of that. What I think is, PLAN will have some ships patroling close to the coast anyway. And it is better to have those ships to have the ability of defending cruiser missiles. 1 054A is close to or probability better than the ability of a Tor M1 battalion.

China has a HUGE coast, and HH-16 has no where near the range needed to be able to make much of a difference. Now, 052C and its follow ups do have a role to play, but that's another topic. I don't want to go through all my weird theories in one post.

It's far more important for 054A to be assigned to protect the fleet than civilian locations.

Because I don't understand why PLAN waste so much money in recent 10 years. It seems what they want is as many air defense ships as possible. Every type of new ship has drawbacks. The 2 last sovs and 052Bs are actually not necessary if you can build 052C in only a few years. And you only build sth like 051C when you badly need some float AAM station but had no other choice in 2-3 years. While 054A is better, but do you have to build it in such a hurry? the first one even doesn't have number yet now you have 4 in the water. And, 054A is not perfect either.

So, what I think is PLAN want an air defense line before 2008, it's a firm order from the top and they had no choice but more and more ships, anything can shoot an air target at >20km.

well, 052B is needed, because they couldn't proceed directly to 052C. Too much a technological leap. 051C was an issurance for 052C, but it's turned out to be a waste of money since it came out long after 052C. The Sovs were bought for numerous reasons, I don't want to get into the specifics. Some of the reasons are political.

As for 052C, it's just a start to what PLAN needs. Frankly, it's hull needs a lot of improvements too. The newer European AAW are far more stealthy than it. Basically, PLAN is in a prolonged catch up, they can't get to what they need right away, that's why you have all these incremental classes. 054A is as close as they get to a world class ship especially for its cost. They basically build something that's better than Sov in air defense, anti-ship missile and stealthiness for less than 1/3 of the cost. And if you look at the current PLAN, you will see that 054A is badly needed in every fleet to just protect the rest of the fleet. Do you want more reasons on why 054 series needs to be mass produced?

[szbd]

OK, I got your idea. But back to the original debate, still, ASW is not very important for 054A right now.

Another thing. Why do you think stealthy is so important? I agree it is very important, but how decisive a factor of stealthy for designing the hull? What I can think about is, stealth helps to defend against ASW missiles and reduce the distance being detected by enmey. But an E2 still can find you from hundreds of km away and a harpoon has no problem to lock on you when it jump out from the horizon.

[crobato]

Article by James Bussert here for SIGNAL magazine on the Jiankai series. A bit dense, lots of detailed info, some of which we know already about, but nonetheless interesting to read.

http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles...1312&zoneid=30

On the radar, Type 364 may simply be the PLA designation for SR-64. However KANWA and Jane's description of the frequency band is contradictory to each other.


His other article for the 052C and 052B

http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles...1312&zoneid=30

http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles...1312&zoneid=30

[szbd]

Sorry, your 3 links are identicle. I found one here

http://www.afcea.org/signal/articles...d=992&zoneid=7

[Scratch]

Originally Posted by crobato

I have a design challenge to some people here.

The assignment is to fit four phase arrays into the 054 design, while maintaining a 360 degree coverage on the arrays.

Lets see what we can come up.

Could you live with three phase arrays on a ship?
I would say on top of the first mast two arrays directed to the front right and front left and one on the aft mast over the exhaust facing straight back.

[crobato]

Originally Posted by Scratch

Could you live with three phase arrays on a ship?
I would say on top of the first mast two arrays directed to the front right and front left and one on the aft mast over the exhaust facing straight back.

that's also possible. One in the rear, two either in the mast or superstructure.

I'm looking at ways how the frigate can evolve if the SAM systems evolve.

If the HH-16 upgrades to using a larger phase array configuration that has both search and FCR purposes, instead of using phase arrays set in Orekhs.

Its possible the need of an AEGIS lite setup can be eliminated in the first place, if the Fregat like Sea Eagle variant and the Type 364 on top of both masts can provide search and track capability, with the HH-16 going with active seekers. You may probably need small datalinks, probably set on the same place where the Orekh clones are.

[Gollevainen]

For Crobato's challenge what first came to my mind was the cancelled Russian project 1244.1 Novik class frigate which is strinkingly similar to 054A in both layout and dimension. As you see in the pic there seems to be at least two plannad array radars in the mast which also fields the Fregat as well. Or slightly modified version could have similar mast as in pr. 2235 Sergei Gorshkov...

here's a drawing of Novik:

[szbd]

Originally Posted by crobato

that's also possible. One in the rear, two either in the mast or superstructure.

I'm looking at ways how the frigate can evolve if the SAM systems evolve.

If the HH-16 upgrades to using a larger phase array configuration that has both search and FCR purposes, instead of using phase arrays set in Orekhs.

Its possible the need of an AEGIS lite setup can be eliminated in the first place, if the Fregat like Sea Eagle variant and the Type 364 on top of both masts can provide search and track capability, with the HH-16 going with active seekers. You may probably need small datalinks, probably set on the same place where the Orekh clones are.

Orekh is for semiactive radar guidance. It continuously illuminates the target with its radar beam, the missile receives the radar signal and goes after the target. If you want intermediate guidance, that's the job of search and track radar. Phase array radar is very powerful for this because it can provide many radar beams simultaniously, including the intermediate guidance signal. I don't think datalink works for intermediate guidance of AAW missile. Because datalink is sent like broadcast, and you need very high frequency to let a fast moving receiver such as your AAW missile receive the correct data. And you have multiple missiles flying, the targets are flying too. Therefore you need to broadcast coded data in high frequency and different chanel with very high power. This is like jamming the whole area.

[nemo]

Originally Posted by szbd

Orekh is for semiactive radar guidance. It continuously illuminates the target with its radar beam, the missile receives the radar signal and goes after the target. If you want intermediate guidance, that's the job of search and track radar. Phase array radar is very powerful for this because it can provide many radar beams simultaniously, including the intermediate guidance signal. I don't think datalink works for intermediate guidance of AAW missile. Because datalink is sent like broadcast, and you need very high frequency to let a fast moving receiver such as your AAW missile receive the correct data. And you have multiple missiles flying, the targets are flying too. Therefore you need to broadcast coded data in high frequency and different chanel with very high power. This is like jamming the whole area.

I don't think intermediate guidance need to be complicated . Missile is launch with the guidance turned off. All the director need to do is tell the missile where to go. To engage the target, the director just direct the missile to go close enough to the target, then tell the missile to activate the guidance. The data rate for this does not have to be very high.

[szbd]

data issue is not the key. You have to broadcast in high frequency and different channels, that will be a jamming. I'm not sure if it's possible. Usually the intermediate guidance signal is sent by the search and track radar.