FFG 054/054A Thread

[MIGleader]

I'm going to side with gollevainen on this one. Large surface fleets are good, but ASW warefare is an essential part of it. In WW1 and 2, German submarines put numerous British battleships and cruisers out of action. U.S submarines put numerous japanese carriers and battleships out of action.

Likewise, i cannot see how even the most advanced PLAN combatants can survive in submarien-dense environment. diesles can only protect the navy for so far befor needing to return to port. Since china wishes to become a blue water navy, the luxery of diesels will quickly diminish.

upgrading ASW is not that hard either. China already has developed some relatively sophisticated sonar. its jsut the abscence of a capable torpedo that disturbs me.

[darth sidious]

Originally Posted by MIGleader

I'm going to side with gollevainen on this one. Large surface fleets are good, but ASW warefare is an essential part of it. In WW1 and 2, German submarines put numerous British battleships and cruisers out of action. U.S submarines put numerous japanese carriers and battleships out of action.

Likewise, i cannot see how even the most advanced PLAN combatants can survive in submarien-dense environment. diesles can only protect the navy for so far befor needing to return to port. Since china wishes to become a blue water navy, the luxery of diesels will quickly diminish.

upgrading ASW is not that hard either. China already has developed some relatively sophisticated sonar. its jsut the abscence of a capable torpedo that disturbs me.

WRONG !!!!!!!!

the u-boats were most effective aginst merchant shiping aginst battleship[s and carriers they hardly made a dint at all.

as for American submrines their only contribuation to teh war was ending merchant shiping and starving out japan

Offcourse teh PLAN will need improved ASW but not right now none of china's enemies have a powerful sub fleet

P.S we are noe totaly off topic if you wan to talk about PLAN's ASW make a new thread

[MIGleader]

If I remeber correctly, both the kongo and the Heiei were sunk by torpedoes. So was the Shinano, a carrier. In WW1, the british cruiser hawke was sunk by a submarines.

Ever heard of preparing for the future? Are you going to wait until your enemy has a powerful submarine force before you start upgrading?

[tphuang]

actually, i have to make a note regarding the F-15Js, they are really not the best F-15s around, probably one of the earlier variants, they can't even fire AMRAAM and they are attempting to integrate an ARH missile like AAM-4, but only very few F-15s have been converted to using AAM-4. The rest are still using AIM-7. Same with F-2. (my opinion toward F-2 has already been posted in many places, lol) Also, I don't think any of the Japanese planes have Helmet Mounted display. imo, Japanese air force faces quantative and qualitative disadvantage vs 4th generation planes of pla.

Korean is a different issue. F-15K is one of the most advanced F-15s around. And I would say the south korean F-16s are probably more advanced than the Japanese F-2 also.

[darth sidious]

Originally Posted by Gollevainen

F-15 and F-16/F-2 are superior to everything but Flankers and perhaps J-10 (we really don't know enough of it that we could say anything certain to any direction) but they definetly are not inferior to those. What exactly are you implying in here? That F-15 might be inferior to J-8 or J-7? Or that F-15 is somewhat bad and unable to perform it's task? And what exact facts is this F-15 minimilazing based on?.

the japanese F-15 is a export version of late production As with only sparrow capability and improved engine. they can not perform ground attack mission or anti-shiping strikes ( unless its use free fall iron bombs) it also has NO AIM-120 capability is alone puts it at disadvantage cpmpared with PLAF flankers. The radar is also not very good only at teh level of F-15A just comparble to unupgraded Su-27Sk. the F-2 suffers from cost over run and structeral problem they have instances of wings breaking off !!! again it lack surface strike ability. Both the japanese and Kprean airforce lack quanity compared with the PLAF.

Originally Posted by Gollevainen

The level of indegenios equipment isen't anyway a factor of your fleets performance. Indegenious systems may be inferior to systems bought from aboard, so stating that some nay is worser than other simply just becouse it has foreing systems is absurd. .

having indegenious equipment means you can control the capability of your ships. imported equipment means the ability of you ships are limited by what others are willing to selll you !!!! china can simply enlarge the 052C to produce a new destroyer where as japan will neded U.S assiatance to built a new knogo. the AGEIS system will have to be imported along with all the weapons that go with the ship

Originally Posted by Gollevainen

Did'nt I just said that the SSMs wont clash against each others, but agtainst their opponents missile defence systems. .

short ranged SSM can put your fleet at a big disadvantage with the new YJ-62 missile's 300KM range the chinese can simply attack a japanese fleet with out fear of anything fored bac at them

Originally Posted by Gollevainen

You are the one stating that Kilo/song and Yuan are superior to Japanese subs, so the burden of proof lyes on you...same goes with the Korean subs.

I said they were comparable not suoperior we know the yuan has AIP somthing the japanese not have ( not until their copy of teh gotland engine is finished ) we know the kilo is more quiet then the 209( comfirmed by excerise in indian navy ) it als has the CLUB superior in pay load and range to the harpon the korean have yet to field. all the sung and many ming have the the sub launched C-803 again better at anti-surface work then the japanese sub fleet.

[darth sidious]

Originally Posted by MIGleader

If I remeber correctly, both the kongo and the Heiei were sunk by torpedoes. So was the Shinano, a carrier. In WW1, the british cruiser hawke was sunk by a submarines.

Ever heard of preparing for the future? Are you going to wait until your enemy has a powerful submarine force before you start upgrading?

the JAPS have no ASW what so ever if destroyer of two could have chased offthe sub. at that point the japanese nevy is already falling apart from shortage of fuel and lack of training

as for the hawk its in WWI also its already a 20year old ship at the time of the sinking it had no significe what so ever !

[darth sidious]

Originally Posted by tphuang

actually, i have to make a note regarding the F-15Js, they are really not the best F-15s around, probably one of the earlier variants, they can't even fire AMRAAM and they are attempting to integrate an ARH missile like AAM-4, but only very few F-15s have been converted to using AAM-4. The rest are still using AIM-7. Same with F-2. (my opinion toward F-2 has already been posted in many places, lol) Also, I don't think any of the Japanese planes have Helmet Mounted display. imo, Japanese air force faces quantative and qualitative disadvantage vs 4th generation planes of pla.

Korean is a different issue. F-15K is one of the most advanced F-15s around. And I would say the south korean F-16s are probably more advanced than the Japanese F-2 also.

the F-15K are too few in number only 40 again it lack helemt mounted sight. as for their F-16 again too little too late not enough to combat teh masses of flankers and the 150J-10 of the PLAF

[PanAsian]

Despite being somewhat off-topic I think we have a good discussion going on here.

Darth, I would like to remind you that China doesn't necessarily have a quantitative advantage over its Asian neighbors because China actually has a much larger area to defend. And the minority of its forces are first rate units.

Qualitatively it is widely recognized that China's defence technology is not as advanced in most areas as its neighbors' supplier, the US, if not its neighbors outright. Additionally, very few systems in the Chinese inventory are battle-tested, and not even in Chinese hands.

I have to say it is obvious that China is experimenting with developing its navy because it is keenly aware of the realities of the situation. Otherwise it would be producing more units en masse. It has made leaps and bounds compared to its capabilities in the 80s but it is nowhere close to being developed, nor is it by any means comparable to the US, Japan, Russia, Britain, or France in terms of force projection.

The PLAN right now has a competent defensive force and that's about it. It definitely needs to develope more robust naval air defense and sub defense systems, and produce a greater number of platforms equipped with these systems in order to go blue water. And as I have said before and will say again, I think it would be wise for the PLAN to prioritize on improving the capabilities of their efficient platforms such as frigates and subs before investing in costly experiments such as a carrier. So the 054 as well as the other new frigates and destroyers are all examples of going in the right direction.

[Gollevainen]

As it is mentioned, we are far too off-topic and i apologizes that I was the one leading us to there.

If you want to continue discussing about PLAN ability to against Japanese or Korean fleet, open a new thread on the issue.
Perhaps i will do it...but if someone continues this ramble in this thread, it will be deleted as any other offtopic content.

[Sea Dog]

Originally Posted by DPRKPTboat

It would make more sense moneywise for the 054 to use indigenous heliecopters, it would cost more money to buy ka-28s. But then China may want a more advanced helicopter than the Z-8.

I'm curious to this aspect of the 054 FFG. It would make sense to use a more indigenous design, but will one be ready in time to accomodate 054 inception? I actually thought PLAN would be interested in using the Ka-28. It's not a bad helo at all and is quite useful in the ASW role.

[vincelee]

the first production Z-9C rolled off in the late 90s. I never understood just why doesn't Harbin crank them out like the J-7s. I think most 9C's are still of the original French construction.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by vincelee

the first production Z-9C rolled off in the late 90s. I never understood just why doesn't Harbin crank them out like the J-7s. I think most 9C's are still of the original French construction.

The problem is that we got like 6 Z-9C? That's just sad. Anyhow, the production rate for Z-9 actually reached an alltime high of 7 per month in January, but that's far from enough if you think about it. The majority of the Z-9s rolling off the line are the Z-9G that's equipping the army. Seems like pla is trying to get as many Z-9G as possible while Z-10 is still not ready for mass production. So, Z-9C/naval aviation is put on the backburner as usual. Either way, I'd imagine the 054s to be equipped a ka-28 or Z-9C though, because they are the designated ASW frigates in plan (sad, I know). Why isn't there more ka-28? China is being cheap? I think the main reason is that they don't think ka-28 is the most modern design. They are probably just waiting for Z-15 naval version or Z-10 naval version to come out.

[duskylim]

Hi Guys!

I always was under the impression that the distinguishing characteristics of the 054A's would be the vertical launched SAMs, planar phased array radar, type 730 CIWS as well as various other (much less visible) upgrades. By which I mean sensors, command and control, electronic warfare, automation, and even better ASW. I presumed that with the developement of the C80X series of AShM, ASHW was pretty much adequate.

I drew these conclusions from the Chinese Military Aviation and Sinodefence sites. In particular CMA which has for a long time posted what purports to be a actual model of the future 054A.

The only other news I've heard is the pictures posted from the Kanwa website that are supposed to be the new frigates being built.

So, is the ship being built actually the new 054A? And if so which of the original specifications are to met?

Thanks and Best Regards

[MIGleader]

were pretty sure of the VLS SAM part. I dont know about the 730 though. The original only had one Rice lamp radar to guide its 4 ak-630s, which i guess means the guns can fire only in one direction at a time. 730s ought to solve that, if it is installed. Planar phased array radar? Probably not. The 2004 model ive seen doesnt have any. It might be the guidance for the SAM, but its risky to try to incorperate it as part of an AEGIS-like combat system. on a smaller FFG, an Aegis-combat system may perform sub-par.

[tphuang]

It appears lately that we have seen two 054A under construction in the same shipyards that their predecessors were under construction (Huangpu and Hudong). I think they will be launched sometimes late this year or early next year from the progress so far. Now, this is what we are guessing so far:
1) The hull is definitely larger than 054 hull, some people are speculating 5000 tonne in maximum displacement. Since 054's hull is only 3400 tonne, I have my doubts. I think 4000+ is what we are looking at
2) It seems that 054A will be using 2 type 730 CIWS like 052B/052C/051C
3) although nobody knows for sure, I would think that you are likely to see 4 AESA radar installed on 054A like it is on 052C.
4) The SAM is likely to be 32 cell and hot launched (copying the mk-41 system?)
5) the missile is HQ-16 (not sure about its relation to shtil) and you will probably see the same combat & control system from 052C on 054A
6) then you have the question of its ASW capability. We know 054 is China's premier ASW frigate. I wonder what kind of sonar is on 054A.

Finally, what is its role?
ASW or AAW? I would say a combination probably.

Until 052D comes out, this should be the most important and most followed PLAN surface combatant outside of the much speculated Varyag.