FFG 054/054A Thread

[MIGleader]

I do not put it beyond the abilities of the chinese to purchases a few russian navy surplus ss-n-14s, and reverse engineer them, as they had done with the mk 46. I do understand Taiwan has a very pathetic sub force, but japans is far from negligible. Even the indians have superior tropedoes to the yu-7, even though the pakistani sub fleet is almost as small as taiwans.

[darth sidious]

Originally Posted by MIGleader

I do not put it beyond the abilities of the chinese to purchases a few russian navy surplus ss-n-14s, and reverse engineer them, as they had done with the mk 46. I do understand Taiwan has a very pathetic sub force, but japans is far from negligible. Even the indians have superior tropedoes to the yu-7, even though the pakistani sub fleet is almost as small as taiwans.

the mk-46 still has room for improvement but the ss-n-14 is too old the torperdo that goes with it is also out of production its anti-shiping ability is minimal

china already purchase the club with its anti-sub missile why would they wat the the old ss-n-14

[MIGleader]

Because no matter how fast missles like the club are, they are prone to interception, unlike torpedoes.

Besides, I'm talking about torpedo's chiense surface combatants can arm themselves with, not submarines. Apparently, none of China's existing torpedoes can match the 55km range of the ss-n-14 yet, the "old" torpedo. Now if only china can get its hands on some stallions...

If china begins lauching yu-5s from its surface combatants, ill be happy.

[darth sidious]

Originally Posted by MIGleader

Because no matter how fast missles like the club are, they are prone to interception, unlike torpedoes.

Besides, I'm talking about torpedo's chiense surface combatants can arm themselves with, not submarines. Apparently, none of China's existing torpedoes can match the 55km range of the ss-n-14 yet, the "old" torpedo. Now if only china can get its hands on some stallions...

If china begins lauching yu-5s from its surface combatants, ill be happy.

the stallion is a missile not a torperdo its old and out of production find spares for it will be a nightmare

also club is a series of missiles that includ ssm, asw, land attack cruise missile etc it can be launched from bnoth surface ship and sub !!!

the primary reason however is the PLAN's lack of intrest in asw weapon RUB rocets 533mm torperdo are readly avilible from russia but china dont need them

the jap sub fleet can be countered by the chinese subs taiwan has a pathetic sub fleet south korea has some license built 209 but thats it so PLAN generaly donthave too worry about subs

china's biggest disadvantageis in the numbers of large sea going destroyers adn air defence not asw

[MIGleader]

Out of production? Do you know that the kursk sank in 2000 while carrying stallions? Its still the top secret weapon of the russian navy.

As for klubs, China only purchased the Anti-ship cruise missle varient, the 3m-54E1. if you can prove the PLan aquired any torpedo versions, ill put it to rest.

I understand east asia is not submarine country, but soon china will be taking her naval aspiration out of the region and into the blue water. The indians have 16 subamrines now, 10 of which are kilos armed with Clubs. Plus we have the six scorpenes. Also, the indians are building their own nuclear submarine. China must take the indian ocean to link up with pakiastan and the oil-mid east, so the region will be hotly constested. Effective ASW is the only way to null out the indian submarine force, as china's diesels cannot go that far.

do i even need to mention america?

[darth sidious]

Originally Posted by MIGleader

Out of production? Do you know that the kursk sank in 2000 while carrying stallions? Its still the top secret weapon of the russian navy.
As for klubs, China only purchased the Anti-ship cruise missle varient, the 3m-54E1. if you can prove the PLan aquired any torpedo versions, ill put it to rest.
I understand east asia is not submarine country, but soon china will be taking her naval aspiration out of the region and into the blue water. The indians have 16 subamrines now, 10 of which are kilos armed with Clubs. Plus we have the six scorpenes. Also, the indians are building their own nuclear submarine. China must take the indian ocean to link up with pakiastan and the oil-mid east, so the region will be hotly constested. Effective ASW is the only way to null out the indian submarine force, as china's diesels cannot go that far.
do i even need to mention america?

india first nuclear sub will probely be as efficent as the 091 they start from zero

the PLAN inot going to expand into indian ocean very soon currently the level of sub threat faced by teh PLAN is not deadly. china's own sub fleet and whatever ASW assets they have right now can handle the threat. the prospesct of american seending SSN into shallow water hwere they will be vunerable to numericlay superior subs and primitive ASW technology the PLAN has right now is minimal.

as of now china already has 2 ASW missile cy-1/2 frankly we dont know anything about them. they may decided the improve these with Russian help insted of buying imports.

P.S a 636 kilo arment includs ASW Club/ land attack cruise missile

[swimmerXC]

Get back to topic.. what does J-10 have to do with Type 054 FFG

[chicket9]

Needless to say, I fear that even PLAN itself underestimates submarines.

The PLAN has the largest submarine fleet in East Asia, and the third in the world. It has 10 Songs, 12 Kilos, 2 Yuans, 2 Type 093s, 1 Type 094, and a handful of modernized Mings, which ALL are substantial vessels, and this does not include the Hans, older Mings, and Romeos.
To summarize, PLAN has a bloody powerful submarine fleet, even if half her boats are considered obsolete. 20+ of them can fire cruise missiles (Song with its YJ8X and Kilo with its Club). China also has a lot of modern torpedoes like YU-5 and imported Russian models.

Yet, perhaps China has placed too much confidence in her submarine fleet to deter other submarines. In time of war, eventually not always will submarines meet submarines, not all PLAN subs can be tied down for escorting surface flotillas, and PLAN will need all the subs it can get for offensive missions, not for escorting PLAN surface ships. This leaves the void of how PLAN surface ships may defend themselves from enemy subs.

Of course, all new combatants have torpedoes and VDS, as well as the helicopter. But most of the Jiangweis, Ludas and Jianghus do not carry torpedoes, which leaves them almost defenceless at close range.

China does not have the numbers of helicopters to ensuure that each vessel with a hangar can carry one, and PLAN aircraft capable of ASW patrols are rather limited, with only a few Y8X and a handful of aging Z8s/SH-5s. With so few aircraft, I doubt PLAN could even maintain 24hour coverage to defend its numerous bases let alone combat groups.

The YU-6 is simply aged to 1970s technology, and is highly inferior to the latest MK46 designs carried by US and Western platforms. Yes, SS-N-14 and Stallion are old, and so are ASROC. But PLAN needs something for its surface vessels to hit submarines at a good range.

While weapons are half the problem, sensors would be the other half. Not enough ships have VDS or modern sonars, and I'm skeptical on how well PLAN pilots are in performing ASW patrols or dipping sonars.


If USN can field up to a dozen SSNs against PLAN, (which in theory it can deploy in very short time from Pearl Harbour, Japan, Guam, and othe bases). These SSNs all can fire subharpoons, tomahawks, and the deadly long range MK48 torpedo. These SSNs are multirole platforms, and are difficult to hit and find, because they are quiet, fast, long range, and manned by some of the best submariners in the world. PLAN cannot depend on just her submarines to act as a shield against enemy subs. Eventually, PLAN's surface flotilla must find ways to defend itself from enemy subs without relying on friendly subs to do the job.

With concentrated spending, all Ludas and Jiangweis can carry YU-7 torpedoes, more Z-9s or Helixs can be bought, ensuring there are more than enough helicopters for all surface ships that can carry em, that friend-foe identification be improved to ensure that no friendly ships attack friendly subs or vice versa, and the CY1 ASW rocket programme be reinitiated, so that PLAN may have a ready to use ASW ranged weapon even if its obsolete.

[darth sidious]

Originally Posted by swimmerXC

Get back to topic.. what does J-10 have to do with Type 054 FFG

where didi we mention the J-10???????????

as for the asw ability of 054 I dont see how its offtopic

[Gollevainen]

Nice post chicet9, welcome to the club...

the primary reason however is the PLAN's lack of intrest in asw weapon RUB rocets 533mm torperdo are readly avilible from russia but china dont need them

the jap sub fleet can be countered by the chinese subs taiwan has a pathetic sub fleet south korea has some license built 209 but thats it so PLAN generaly donthave too worry about subs

china's biggest disadvantageis in the numbers of large sea going destroyers adn air defence not asw

Sorry sidius, but thats pretty weird to say. China cannot build its navy to compete only Taiwan any longer in 21st century. And the PLA main heads sees this and luckyly the emphasis of the navy has moved towards blue water navy, and in that contest Chinese forces migth encounter threads of more uncertain nature. Remember that Japan has over 20 subs, all of them superior to the bulk of chinese subs, never the mention of US nuclear fleet that cannot be encountered whit WWII era coastal forces.
The current trend in the international naval legue is sub-surface, as the potential of modern air arm (in hands of US) has become more and more superior in against surface units. In cost effective perspective, its hardly if not at all wise to go on for expensive AAW units and own aircraft carrier capapility, as the subs offers lot more potential in lot cheaper prices.

Thougth this dictates mostly strategies of US aversors, it nevertheless doesent outclude US importance of Submarine arm, nor does it outclass any other potential adversos that china migth face. PLAN has finaly managed to lift of from its single purpose nature that has been more harm than good for china, But it cannot cope against modern forces whitout state of the art ASW systems. Currently almoust all ASW devolpment has been placed in ice after the retirement of vast Soviet submarine fleet and cold war in general, but china cannot let changed political circumstances out of its perspective to dictate its own defence requirments. the most important step in the road that PLAN has now taken is to produce a respectfull fleet of basic oceanic escorts and hunter-killer groups of submarines and surface units, packed up whit airborne units to encounter any possiple submarine thread.
Only afterwards, its reasonable to go on for mass production of AAW units to defend carrier task groups as well the ASW forces

Your mentioned big ocean going destroyers arent in any use...but to be big and go oceanic...956Es were designed in totally different purposes that chinese fleet could ever field them, Luhus and Luhais are little above presidental-yatch status against modern japanese, south korean and US surface units and submarines. Whiout modern ocean going ASW escorts, this fleetupgrade whit possiple carrier, is no use, and will go bottom before anyone gets change say anything...

[RedMercury]

Just a reality check, be sure you're not comparing lightweight ASW torpedos with heavyweight torpedos in terms of performance numbers. They are very different in size and mass.

[darth sidious]

Originally Posted by Gollevainen

Nice post chicet9, welcome to the club...



Sorry sidius, but thats pretty weird to say. China cannot build its navy to compete only Taiwan any longer in 21st century. And the PLA main heads sees this and luckyly the emphasis of the navy has moved towards blue water navy, and in that contest Chinese forces migth encounter threads of more uncertain nature. Remember that Japan has over 20 subs, all of them superior to the bulk of chinese subs, never the mention of US nuclear fleet that cannot be encountered whit WWII era coastal forces.
The current trend in the international naval legue is sub-surface, as the potential of modern air arm (in hands of US) has become more and more superior in against surface units. In cost effective perspective, its hardly if not at all wise to go on for expensive AAW units and own aircraft carrier capapility, as the subs offers lot more potential in lot cheaper prices.

Thougth this dictates mostly strategies of US aversors, it nevertheless doesent outclude US importance of Submarine arm, nor does it outclass any other potential adversos that china migth face. PLAN has finaly managed to lift of from its single purpose nature that has been more harm than good for china, But it cannot cope against modern forces whitout state of the art ASW systems. Currently almoust all ASW devolpment has been placed in ice after the retirement of vast Soviet submarine fleet and cold war in general, but china cannot let changed political circumstances out of its perspective to dictate its own defence requirments. the most important step in the road that PLAN has now taken is to produce a respectfull fleet of basic oceanic escorts and hunter-killer groups of submarines and surface units, packed up whit airborne units to encounter any possiple submarine thread.
Only afterwards, its reasonable to go on for mass production of AAW units to defend carrier task groups as well the ASW forces

Your mentioned big ocean going destroyers arent in any use...but to be big and go oceanic...956Es were designed in totally different purposes that chinese fleet could ever field them, Luhus and Luhais are little above presidental-yatch status against modern japanese, south korean and US surface units and submarines. Whiout modern ocean going ASW escorts, this fleetupgrade whit possiple carrier, is no use, and will go bottom before anyone gets change say anything...

what are you talking about !!!!!!!!!!!

the PLAN needs to become ocean going first, to complete this goal it needs mordern destroyer sized ship and a good airdefence given time the PLAN will eventualy become a balanced naval force like teh USN. Only then will ASW be required. The jap navy at its core still relies on sea sparrow for airdefence and harpoon for SSM not a great advantage when cpompare with the PLAN. As for the Korean they arent qualtively superior to PLAN and are currently outnumbered. The Yuan and kilos china have is still better then their 209 copy and japan's homemade SSK. they also have littile/ no defense aginst the 093 SSN entering teh PLAN right now. In terms of the numbers and quality of SSM china has an edge over both nations. in airdefence the gap is rapdily closing this combined with china's superior airpower ( compared with these nations offcourse ) is enough to hold off the japs and korean.

But right now its primary enemies are taiwan and Japan maybe a carrier task force or two from America. aginst this enemy the surface unit of PLAN isent going to be effective any time soon. insted china will rely on massive numbers of missile launched from sub and aircraft. this is the 21the centry the age of missiles!!!!!!!!!!! large surface units are nothing but steel eater waste full of shipyard space. A massive fleet can be construced quickly and cheaply without significantly tech improvement. deployed in numbers these subs are good for detering the americans and cuting of merchant shiping from japan.

[Gollevainen]

I cannot agree with you Dart and i found your statements still quite weird....

the PLAN needs to become ocean going first, to complete this goal it needs mordern destroyer sized ship and a good airdefence given time the PLAN will eventualy become a balanced naval force like teh USN. Only then will ASW be required.

Truly capaple blue water navy is sum of many factors and lacking in one means your entire fleet has very strong weak point. You cannot put a importance-numbers to these factors, you need them all. A good airdefence wont defend you against submarines...

The jap navy at its core still relies on sea sparrow for airdefence and harpoon for SSM not a great advantage when cpompare with the PLAN.

Harpoon is extremely capaple SSM and is more than sufficient enough to deal the enemyes that Japan might come agross. If we are trying to compare Japans performance towards chinses navy, remember that apart from the 052b/C classes, china lacks completely adequate missiledefence systems and airdefence in general. SSMs wont clahs against each others...

As for the rest part of your post, I can only say that you are looking facts behind way too red eyeclasses. How can you state that Korean and japanese navy are quantivily bellow china? Or that China have airsuperioty over these two countryes? I think you should pay bit more time on studying both Korean and Japanese current fleets and armed forces in general.

Don't take this as anyway offencive, but it seems that you live almoust in denyal over some certain important factors of Chinese overall capapilityes. You seem to see only things that you wishes and ignoring tthe well know fact, that untill very recently, chinese navy (particularry) was completely obsolent compared to any other modern fleets. It lacked many elements that are taken granted when descriping modern, capaple fleet. So how can you expect that after 5 years (altough fast) build up can china be par or superior to let's say Japan which have enjoyed beeing in the top league for nearly 50 years?

[darth sidious]

Originally Posted by Gollevainen

I cannot agree with you Dart and i found your statements still quite weird....
Truly capaple blue water navy is sum of many factors and lacking in one means your entire fleet has very strong weak point. You cannot put a importance-numbers to these factors, you need them all. A good airdefence wont defend you against submarines...
Harpoon is extremely capaple SSM and is more than sufficient enough to deal the enemyes that Japan might come agross. If we are trying to compare Japans performance towards chinses navy, remember that apart from the 052b/C classes, china lacks completely adequate missiledefence systems and airdefence in general. SSMs wont clahs against each others...
As for the rest part of your post, I can only say that you are looking facts behind way too red eyeclasses. How can you state that Korean and japanese navy are quantivily bellow china? Or that China have airsuperioty over these two countryes? I think you should pay bit more time on studying both Korean and Japanese current fleets and armed forces in general.

Don't take this as anyway offencive, but it seems that you live almoust in denyal over some certain important factors of Chinese overall capapilityes. You seem to see only things that you wishes and ignoring tthe well know fact, that untill very recently, chinese navy (particularry) was completely obsolent compared to any other modern fleets. It lacked many elements that are taken granted when descriping modern, capaple fleet. So how can you expect that after 5 years (altough fast) build up can china be par or superior to let's say Japan which have enjoyed beeing in the top league for nearly 50 years?

as a sign of respect you might want to spell my name out correctly !

maybe you should look more at the current jap airforce and the perfomance of their F-15!!! or the Korean F-16 they are not superior in quality to the Su-27/30 or J-10 in anyway.

the 052b/c do not lack quality compared with alll the jap destroyers except for the kongos. china does not need to mass produce them if you notice they only buit two at a time to test tachnology and beef up the fleet in terms of numbers. All of the weapons and engines on the japanese and korean ships are imported from America where as the chinese shps generaly have indengenious weapon systems. The difference bewten teh chinaese and japanese navy is only going the get smaller

the harpoon also compares poorly with new chinese SSM's

as for the japanese sub fleet please prove they are superior in quality to the Yuan/song /kilo china has

Korea's copy of early 209 is also not any better then the kilo

P.S insted of resorting to personal insult by accusing othes of looking through a red eye glass looking up some info on the jap airforce might be helpful

[Gollevainen]

as a sign of respect you might want to spell my name out correctly !

like you always so nicely spell Gollevainen?

Now i said, don't take it as offence. I never made any personal insults, so don't try to start a fuzz over nothing. I'mjust pointing out that your "facts" are bit strange and wondering where they are based on?

maybe you should look more at the current jap airforce and the perfomance of their F-15!!! or the Korean F-16 they are not superior in quality to the Su-27/30 or J-10 in anyway.

F-15 and F-16/F-2 are superior to everything but Flankers and perhaps J-10 (we really don't know enough of it that we could say anything certain to any direction) but they definetly are not inferior to those. What exactly are you implying in here? That F-15 might be inferior to J-8 or J-7? Or that F-15 is somewhat bad and unable to perform it's task? And what exact facts is this F-15 minimilazing based on?

All of the weapons and engines on the japanese and korean ships are imported from America where as the chinese shps generaly have indengenious weapon systems

The level of indegenios equipment isen't anyway a factor of your fleets performance. Indegenious systems may be inferior to systems bought from aboard, so stating that some nay is worser than other simply just becouse it has foreing systems is absurd.

the harpoon also compares poorly with new chinese SSM's

Did'nt I just said that the SSMs wont clash against each others, but agtainst their opponents missile defence systems.

as for the japanese sub fleet please prove they are superior in quality to the Yuan/song /kilo china has

You are the one stating that Kilo/song and Yuan are superior to Japanese subs, so the burden of proof lyes on you...same goes with the Korean subs.