FFG 054/054A Thread

[adeptitus]

The CY-1 is a pretty old project. I think back in ~1990 the publication "Combat Fleet of the World" (?) claimed that the CY-1 ASW rocket had specs of 5.5 meter length. 41 cm diameter, 700 kg weight, and effective range of 5km-18km. The CY-1 was shown in 1986 November Asia Weapons Expo.

Globalsecurity claims that the CY-1 is the rear-half of a C-801 combined with an A244 torpedo in the front. These publications also claim that it was installed on the Luda ships for testing.

15 years later, there's still very little information on the CY-1, and no indication that it actually entered service. There are various rumors about the CY-2 and CY-3, but no evidence.

[Gollevainen]

Ha, you are back in your old denial mode

No, I'm just a common unbeliver...

But I've said many times this and I will say it again. Altough I have great intress towards chinese military, I have no passion towards it. My self-esteem doesen't require chinese military gizmoes beeing better than those in USA or at least India. I want to know the thrut hidden behind these many rumours and thus I don't act like a child waiting what the santa will bring for christmans presents. So pardon me If I tend to have the normal level of sceptism towards all information spread around internet forums. Have I've been wrong with my sceptism? Yeas (tough for example I never have said YJ83 does not exist, If I recall correctly my sayings for that missle that could be interprate in that way came in the time when we still talked about C803s and C805...) but at least I have the courage to admitt being wrong or that my estimations prooven out to be incorrect. Part of the whole picture why I'm doing this is to get you kids proof your case more properly and look in to the heart of the matter more deeply with out those red sunclasses.

But to the topic...the CY-2...Now when the most realible rumours is saying that the 054A is going to be fitted the SA-N-12 in VLS mode (the Orekh directors tells alot) where did this HQ16 in some super VLS that can fire non-existing ASW missile? As Zyun8288 choosed this path, he is now oblicated to provide us the proof of his claims about 054A with HQ16 and CY-2, failing to do so will mean your obligation for public apology to me...

[oringo]

I don't know much about the CY-1/2/3/4 rumors, but I try to analyze PLAN's thinking with what I know of. 54A is the first frigate in PLAN to have VLS system, with that comes more advanced radar, weapon control system, data processing capabilities, etc. From a system integration point of view, 54A has a lot of new things on her plate, and it is probably not the best place to field an experimental missle, not to mention this missle will be sharing the new launch system with the HQ16. It's a lot of complications for the risk management, which, speaking of which, has seen adoptation for the building and design of 052C.

I have seen articles on Chinese military magazines arguing the case for China to have a standard modular VLS, and I have no doubt that PLAN wants a standard modular VLS; its advantages are so obvious. But the integration of many different types of missles is not easy, and technological advancements take time. China will get there one day, it's just not today.

[tphuang]

first image of 054A after it was launched in HP
any thoughts

[Jeff Head]

Originally Posted by tphuang

first image of 054A after it was launched in HP
any thoughts

Looks good...but far too indestinct to make a firm technical observations at this point. Obviously coming right along. Want to get a good look at the fore end of that thing...to see what's going on wth the VLS.

[guitarjeff]

A miniature 052B!
I don't know if it is a visual illusion, but the 054A seems to have a lower freeboard even at this stage compared to the 054. It makes me wonder if the ship has any more room for further upgrades. Also, could the installation of the 76mm gun be a weight-saving measure?
I am wondering if modular construction could be employed for 054A to come up with multiple variants with different mission emphases. I would like to see a dedicated ASW ship with point defence SAM, towed sonar array, and a hanger capable of accommodating 2 Ka-28s. Would the hull be large enough to accommodate it or should the 052B/C hull be used?

[Gollevainen]

Well I can see your point guitarjeff, as the orginal 054 is somewhat extended version of the Jiangwei. I pretty much think that this is the ultimate extension of that particular shipdesign.

But othervice it look rather good, It's as it supposed to be, a 054 with VSL SA-N-12 (note orekh target Illuminators atop the rear end hangar roof and aside the mast, and the Top Plate radar). The gun solution seems intersting and if they choose the 76 mm instead of the 100mm it gives yet another round for speculations.

[adeptitus]

I haven't seen a PLAN 76mm gun yet. Usually the manufactuer would release some promo information ahead, like the Type 730 CIWS gun.

I'm curious to see if the ship is fitted with VLS cels, or a more traditional 3S-90 launcher like this:
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/navalmissile/9m3171.asp
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/A...Article13j.jpg

It's possible that the 054A turns out to look more like 052B-Lite, with similiar araments except 1 SAM launcher instead of 2, fewer SAMs carried, and shorter mission endurance. It'd be a conservative design with existing, operational-proven (but not combat-proven) systems.

[Gollevainen]

About the 76 mm gun, there is pictures of the Ak-176 with totally redesigned turret (the gun is still the same) fitted to what appears to be a shorebased testing site somewhere in China. I belive that there is pics in this forum as well.

All rumours suggest that a VLS launcher for the SA-N-12 is to be fitted, but it wont suprise me if there is a tradditional one-arm launcher. If so, then the ship would be somewhat the size and capabilty of the Oliverd Hazard Perry class and slightly inferior to the Tawlar class (due the Klub-N system and with out a doupt a better sonar suite)...but lets wait and see...

[challenge]

newer gen. frigate and destroyer coming out in the west use AESA,giving the size ,054A should have adapt small AESA (x band).
new generation of shipborne and airborne weapons use stealth technology,this make AESA a "must have".

[eecsmaster]

yeah, these frigates are also 6-7000 tons. Also, I'd like to point out that only the Horizon and Type 45 use AESA. SPY-1 and derivatives are all PESA.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by Gollevainen

About the 76 mm gun, there is pictures of the Ak-176 with totally redesigned turret (the gun is still the same) fitted to what appears to be a shorebased testing site somewhere in China. I belive that there is pics in this forum as well.

All rumours suggest that a VLS launcher for the SA-N-12 is to be fitted, but it wont suprise me if there is a tradditional one-arm launcher. If so, then the ship would be somewhat the size and capabilty of the Oliverd Hazard Perry class and slightly inferior to the Tawlar class (due the Klub-N system and with out a doupt a better sonar suite)...but lets wait and see...

As far as I can tell, the image on the picture looks exactly like the model we got. And in that model, it was clearly using a VLS launcher. As for top plate and orekh radar, I'm not sure about that either. We saw something like bandstand on Chinese DDGs a while back and now it turned out to be Chinese version of band stand that handles Chinese SSMs. As for top plate, it seems to be using a the naval version of the Sea Eagle S/C radar. And since the band stand and the Top plate look-alikes are actually Chinest products, I won't be surprised if the 4 Orekh look-alike Illuminators aren't Orekh.

VLS shtil to be seems a little unlikely due to the fact that the Russian VLS system in general takes up a lot of space. A 4500 tonne frigate with a hangar seems to not leave much space for VLS.

[Gollevainen]

We should avoid the justification "if something turned out to be a different, then will this one too..". Sofar the radars assosiated to the Shtill, Top plate (Fregat-ME) and Front Dome (Orekh) are fitted in the 052B class and as the strongest rumours indicates, that same missile system is to be fitted to 054A also, I'm pretty sure this is the case in here. And what comes to the VLS, remember that it takes far less space than the orginal missile with it's 24 missile magazine and that system was succesfully fitted to similar size Tawlars...

[adeptitus]

Here's a good description on the Shtil (older SA-N-7) SAM system installed on the Delhi-class:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34552
In the air defence role, a pair of 3S-90 launchers - one installed forward of the bridge and the other atop the dual helicopter hangar - are fitted with the Shtil SAM system. The Shtil system comprises of the 9M38M1 (SA-N-7, navalised SA-11) missile and 24 such missiles are carried in a below-decks magazine. The launchers elevate up to 70º but have a limited firing arc of 30º within the centreline. The launcher groups require a crew of 20 men and weigh about 50 tons. Target tracking data is provided by the MR-775 Fregat MAE planar array radar which can engage up to 12 targets at ranges of 32 km. Target illumination and semi-active homing is provided via six MR-90 Orekh (NATO: Front Dome) illuminators, four mounted forward and two aft.

The 9M38M1 SAM, designated as Kashmir by the Indian Navy, is armed with a 70 kg high-explosive warhead, has a maximum speed of Mach 3 (830 m/s) and can manoeuvre up to 20 g. The missile can handle target aircrafts traveling at 420 to 830 m/s and incoming missiles moving at 330 to 830 m/s. The reaction time is 16 to 19 seconds and the advertised kill percentage is 81 to 96% for a two-missile salvo. Ranges against aircraft are 3 km to 32 km with altitudes from 15 metres to 15 km. Ranges against incoming missiles are 3.5 km to 12 km with altitudes from 10 metres to 10 km. The missile probably has a secondary anti-ship capability.

============================================

Since the SA-N-7 and SA-N-12 use pretty much the same/similiar equipment, I think the above description prolly applies to the 052B as well. I've seen Russian SA-N-6 rotating VLS system, but not for the SA-N-7/12. If the 054A has SA-N-12 in VLS launchers, it may be a domestic development.

The Russians have the Klub-N (91RE2) ASW missile, which has been advertised for both box launcher and "unified VLS launcher". It occured to me that the Klub-family missiles (3M-54x, 3M-14x, 91REx) all share the same diamter size (for 533mm torpedo tube launch). I think it may be possible to adopt them for "unified VLS" system. I'd be curious to see if the next generation Russian warships might be equipped with it. This could be what the PLAN is looking for, a VLS system that can deploy LACM, AShM, SAM, and ASW Missiles.

[eecsmaster]

the launcher is not limited to 30 from centerline. There are confirmed photos of start/portside launches.