The design of a super-stealthy asymmetric anti-ship cruise missile..

Originally Posted by crobato

Another thing is that I think Lilzz, you underestimate what you can do with thermal detection. Look at the way they are used in astronomy, and please note how faint thermal radiation is when its coming from another star.

Actually IR radiation (in comparision to radar) is rather short range under the best atmospheric conditions. It's another thing when it comes to a radiation source as powerful as a cosmic source and to the question of the vaccum of space.

Originally Posted by planeman

Maybe, but not necessarily. Flares, chaff and decoys can be very compact.

IR-signature morphing would I guess involve two or three heat sources that rotate in different directions and varying speeds around the axis of the aircraft - would that confuse basic IIR missiles and sensors? (of course, keeping it secret from the enemy would help, I'm sure it could be overcome if the enemy had years to build the countermeasures).

Right. Also, I like the idea of a rather large and therefore long range anti-ship missile which - when nearing its terminal phase - morphs into 3 or more super-maneurable subminiture missiles each with its own guidance and warheads.

I kind of like the idea of a ballistic missile, probably two or three stage, and the terminal stage drops into the water and becomes a supercavitation torpedo.

Reading this, I just had the idea of an anti-ship "drone" wich flies to the target for 150+ nm, and then releaes some small missiles around 30-40nm from the target, those could be ARM and other small missiles wich engage the ships sensors and superstructures at Mach3 or so. This might render the ship inoperable without the need to sink it.
But that's also a rather complex and big thing. Perhaps not worth the effort.

In reality, cruise missiles have very low RCS as it is from the front. They have radar frequency selective radome in front, and that would absorb radar waves. Often they would use body of carbon composite so that too absorbs radar waves. Exhaust masking will be the best way to deal with thermal emissions, although at a slight cost of the missile's flight performance. Does not take a genius to figure this out, you mix cold air with your exhaust by rerouting, and this is a technique already used in many ships.

If there is no counter to stealthy missiles, then you reach the end game. There would no counter to stealthy missiles, not even 5th generation fighters or the latest SAM systems. There would be no balance between offense and defense. When everything is heavily imbalanced to offense, the only real good defense is a good offense. Which means the only way to stop the other guy's missiles is to hit him first with your own.

Every other platform would become obsolete, since the answer to everything, is to destroy his base. Achieve aerial superiority by destroying his air base first. Achieve naval superiority by destroying his naval base first. Achieve land superiority by destroying his army bases first. No point in making planes, ships and tanks. Just build lots of lots of missiles and hit the poor sucker with them in a massive first strike.

This condition appeared early in the Cold War. The weapon in question is the Ballistic Missile + Atomic Bomb. With only one weapon you own your enemy. So the best counter was to build your own and build more than the other guy. This lead to a condition of stand off. Even today when ABM systems have been technologically demonstrated, I doubt anything could stop a massive swarm of ICBMs by the hundreds.

That is why defensive systems have to raise their level to meet new challenges. Its not the Raptor that will spur this. The next great threat will be even stealthier cruise missiles, because such CMs can be built much more affordably by rogue countries, and easy for the techs to proliferate. And by extension, if you are able to intercept stealthy missiles, you will be able to intercept stealthy aircraft.

Allegedly might be a new supersonic YJ type. Or it may just be fan art.

I thought the OP point is to gave the missile as much suprise as possible. At 0-10km detection distance how the hell can CIWS lock on and shoot? Also if a volley of missiles are launched they will overcome defensive system because not enough CIWS guns.

On stealth coating it does not need to be as durable and have long life span as B2 or F22 because it is an one shot weapon. Stored in a secure self contained tube.

Originally Posted by Baibar of Jalat

I thought the OP point is to gave the missile as much suprise as possible. At 0-10km detection distance how the hell can CIWS lock on and shoot? Also if a volley of missiles are launched they will overcome defensive system because not enough CIWS guns.

On stealth coating it does not need to be as durable and have long life span as B2 or F22 because it is an one shot weapon. Stored in a secure self contained tube.

At 10km out, that's plenty of engagement time. When you take the human element out of the decision making whenever or not to engage, decisions about what is a threat is done by the computer which has milliseconds in terms of decision making.

Furthermore, attempting to overwhelm the defences with missiles won't exactly work unless you have A LOT of missiles, more than 20. Modern ships have enough computing power to decide which target is the immediate threat and direct which weapon to engage the target automatically, even if it is multiple targets.

Originally Posted by Pointblank

At 10km out, that's plenty of engagement time. When you take the human element out of the decision making whenever or not to engage, decisions about what is a threat is done by the computer which has milliseconds in terms of decision making.

Furthermore, attempting to overwhelm the defences with missiles won't exactly work unless you have A LOT of missiles, more than 20. Modern ships have enough computing power to decide which target is the immediate threat and direct which weapon to engage the target automatically, even if it is multiple targets.

Anywhere between 0-10km so could be one km, in theory. Someone stated 3km in first page. I do not want to sound definative.

First we have to look at speed of missile. Sub sonic, super sonic or hyper sonic. Say range of five km this "super stealthy" missile is detected by thermal cam, the gatalin guns will be the fastest to respond the missiles due to physics of rocket engine will take a second or two to come out of VL tubes. Then remember it may take less the a second to lock on the target. So the main defence will be gun (ciws) for this Anti ship missile however if there is two guns on ship then all you need is more then two missiles to take out ship. The guns seen on youtube usually take more then a few seconds to destroy target thus not enough time to intercept other fast approaching missile.

You may think other ships can help out but I expect them to be sprend out to prevent a nuclear weapon landing close by dont want all ships bunched together, more likely to be nuc tipped missile.

I hope you understand what i am saying. I apologise in advance, if find it hard reading. It is hard to explain esp when it is all speculative thus no right or wrong response. Also note I am not sure of response time of SAMs on ships!

Originally Posted by Pointblank

At 10km out, that's plenty of engagement time. When you take the human element out of the decision making whenever or not to engage, decisions about what is a threat is done by the computer which has milliseconds in terms of decision making.

Furthermore, attempting to overwhelm the defences with missiles won't exactly work unless you have A LOT of missiles, more than 20. Modern ships have enough computing power to decide which target is the immediate threat and direct which weapon to engage the target automatically, even if it is multiple targets.

I can't say that you can paint a picture of absolute certainty here. Modern AshMs are also stealthy, which means they can cut down on your detection time; they are capable of evasive maneuvers, responding with electronic reflexes against radar signals; and they can respond with their own countermeasures like jamming.

So there is no line that can guarantee that you can stop the missile, or likewise, that the missile can penetrate the defenses.

A stealthy cruise missle is the ultimate assymetric weapon; for the marginally increased cost of adding stealth features onto a cruise missle (or desigining one like that from the beginning more likely) you are able to take out a ship that is much more expensive. I honestly wonder why CM technology has not evolved to the point were the missles are heaviliy stealthed; if it is possible with an airplane, shouldn't it be much easier with a smaller cruise missle? The best way to counter such a missle aside from what Crobato said (shoot first) would probably by electronic-radar jamming and decoys, EMP blasts and all other sorts of ways to confuse the missle's technology.

What about a ballistic missle armed with a torpedo that falls out at 100 ft? I always bring this up and no one ever answers me; it seems to me that this would be the ideal assymetric weapon because it gets around the teeth of Aegis-style defences by going ballistic and gets around the inherent inaccuracy of a BM by using a torpedo.

Defense vs. Offense as a conceptual technical battle is ongoing, and its never decided one way or the other. If you improve on the offensive measures, the defensive side will do as well, and likewise, to the offensive side again, and this cycles over and over. Jamming, ECM and maybe even EMP may end up being used in both directions; missiles will have jamming and decoys, but so will ships.

The result is no certainty in theory and principle until all are tested in the crucible and laboratory of actual combat.

I thought we have already mentioned the ballistic missile plus torpedo idea before. I think no one has said much because no one hasn't seen any other way to properly counter it unless you are able to intercept the missile itself early with an anti-ballistic missile. And its not just a torpedo, it should be a rocket propelled super cavitation torpedo or Skvall like device. if the torpedo is wake homing, even more the problem of countering it. Typically the best way to counter a torpedo are with decoys, but if the torpedo is "smart" or uses some other principle in homing, I can see no other means but to MLRS a rocket barrage of depth charges in front of the torpedo's path.

In any case, I think torpedoes are one thing today that may be dangerously underrated.

I am always fascinated by some of the stuff the Russians use, sadly not adopted by the Chinese. Things like the Vodapad or Stallion, which as ASROC or rocket launched torpedoes, like the SS-N-14 Silex, the SS-N-15 Starfish, or the SS-N-16 Stallion.

Originally Posted by crobato

I can't say that you can paint a picture of absolute certainty here. Modern AshMs are also stealthy, which means they can cut down on your detection time; they are capable of evasive maneuvers, responding with electronic reflexes against radar signals; and they can respond with their own countermeasures like jamming.

So there is no line that can guarantee that you can stop the missile, or likewise, that the missile can penetrate the defenses.

Most of the larger anti-ship missiles are radar guided; they emit a radar signature to find a target. That means for most warships, there is a early hint as to if a missile is coming, and in which direction. Furthermore, from the Doppler effect, we can even ascertain as to approximately how far out the missile is, if it is closing, etc.

Since most warships use a layed air defence system, threats at long range will be engaged by first SAM's, then chaff/flares, then main gun, followed by the last line of defence, the CIWS. It seems everyone is focused on the last line of defence, and neglecting the other lines.

Originally Posted by Pointblank

Most of the larger anti-ship missiles are radar guided; they emit a radar signature to find a target. That means for most warships, there is a early hint as to if a missile is coming, and in which direction. Furthermore, from the Doppler effect, we can even ascertain as to approximately how far out the missile is, if it is closing, etc.

Since most warships use a layed air defence system, threats at long range will be engaged by first SAM's, then chaff/flares, then main gun, followed by the last line of defence, the CIWS. It seems everyone is focused on the last line of defence, and neglecting the other lines.

The equation is quickly altered if the radar on the AshM has LPI qualities, or is passive homing, or has a infrared seeker. In theory and practice, ARMs can be delivered against ships as well, and though they won't sink a ship, they can destroy the radar and the ship's superstructure that leave it mission killed.

Radar and infrared seekers are also increasingly ECM, chaff and flare resistant. As they become "smarter" so will their discrimination and filtering capabilities.

Originally Posted by crobato

Allegedly might be a new supersonic YJ type. Or it may just be fan art.

It looks similar to the photos of the YJ-91, which I believe is a HARM. I wonder if this design in the pics is stealthy.