SinoDefence Forum

IDonT

The US has recently released a 77 page document regarding the PLAN.
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/57462.pdf
They have addressed several key limitations that the PLAN still needs to address. They include:

1.)Limited operations capability in distant waters
2.)Joint operations
3.)C4ISR (command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance)
4.)Long-range surveillance and targeting systems (really impacts the EFFECTIVE range of PLAN's anti-ship missiles)
5.)Anti-air warfare (AAW)
6.)Antisubmarine warfare (ASW)
7.)Mine countermeasures(MCM)
8.)Logistics

The question is, what steps or probable steps the PLAN need to do to address this problem. Please note the fact that more glamorous naval capabilities, such as fielding a carrier group is not one of them.

renmin

These are all quite true. China's navy cant really operate in blue waters though the PRC is trying to correct this problem. China's AAW is also low. the PLAN is still a little small in size so there is still improvment on the number of ships and submarines. The traditonal reson for the navy was to operate near China's borders to defend the country from attack.

MIGleader

i would have to agree with all except the targeting and aaw. the aaw used to be a big handicap, but with the use of grizzlys, s-300s, gadflys, annd hq-15s, its really not so mvuh of a weakness. the targeting...the helix is a good helicopters, reliable and with good sensors. the new plan radars are pretty impressive too. its just that the plan lacks the ability to coordinate operations.

tphuang

actually, I would agree with most of the above except for AAW. I do think that with the induction of 052C and 051C, it's a sign that AAW in PLAN is actually becoming one of the strength in PLAN.

If anything, the fact that 094 hasn't entered PLAN is probably a bigger problem, since 092 doesn't really provide a credible deterrence.

Sea Dog

Agreed. However DF-31 is a credible deterrence. And currently in service. And if I'm not mistaken, PLAN is focusing more heavily on 093 as a first step to the development of 094. This would make sense as 094 basic designs are speculated to be similar to the 093's basic design, with the additional space for the JL-2's.

MIGleader

according to strategy center, the type 94 has already been launched and joind the 92. i dont know how credible this is, since their were few details.

tphuang

it has been launched, but it's still ongoing a lot of sea test. Looking back at China's past nuclear sub developments, this could take a long long time. JL-2 has been reported to have been tested on 092, so that's a good news at least. The estimation is that 094 will commission probably in 2008. Until then, 092 is all we got.

bd popeye

IDon't, You my friend have started an excellent thread. All of us could learn something from this. Excellent response's all. Very realistic.

As you guys may know I am suspect the PLAN lacks in the area of training. I think training in a navy is very important. Its one thing to have modern weapons. Another to know how to use them. Modern weapons systems can't be operated by indivuals that have limited training in using them. Therefore training is esential. Training should include, firefighting, damage control & firts aid for all hands. The operation of weapon systems on real targets with live fire. Operating simulators. Wargames and manuvers with other nations.

I think personnel is also a problem . I think it was MIGleader that posted in another thread that the 167(?) was manned mostly by officers I don't understand why enlisted men can't be trained to do the jobs on the 167. Other Navies operate this way. Strong minded, well trained carreer NCO's are the backbone of any military. I think that is a direction the PLAN needs to move to. I know from reading this forum that there millions of voulnteers for the PLA forces yearly.

I would also know how well the PLAN can do underway replenishments(unrep) & vertical replenishments(vertrep). Can they do a vertrep? But before they can be proficent in unreps's and vertrep's they must develp a logistical system that will work. This may require establishing bases outside of the PRC and using civillian assets. A feat that may be difficult to accomplishment.

Yes the PLAN does have it's short commings. But you can't build a blue water navy over night. They have come a long way in the last few years. In the future when the PLAN overcomes it's shortcommings it will be a force to be reckoned with.

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MIGleader

for right now, the plan can accomplish its job. its mainly a green water defence navy, and can adequately assert china's claims in the peripheral regions. the plan has also been rather patient with its growth, despite a potential to grow much faster, especially seeing how theyve held off on a ccarrier till now. this allows more time for adaption and training.

bd popeye

MIGleader, you are 100% correct. The PLAN is very capble in the waters close to the PRC. As long as any conflict stays in their region they will be able to fight for a time until their assets are exhausted. Fact.

The best way to build the blue water navy is slowly like MIGleader suggest. It takes times and years of training to get it right. I'm sure the PLAN in time will be able to do this. Don't be impatient guys is this "instant I want it now" world. The PLAN will someday be a great Navy. It just takes time.

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Gollevainen

Well As for the taking time in building up a strong naval precense is quite obvious and im sure PLAN staff knows this stuff...But its totally different thing to choose rigth path tho dominance. Time is one thing, doing the rigth choices are another and worst cases time can be the most cripling factor when you notice that some big and expensive way to achieve something turns to be complete waste of time and money. Soviet Unions carrier plans are great example of this. PLAN is now in the edge of those decisions and slow and carefull way to handle things isent automaticly the best and rigth way...
This is specially tru with carriers. Im conviced that china should go in for soon as possiple, finish up the Varyag and begin to introduce naval aviation lagacy for future generations. Soviets tryed the crawl-walk-run accpect and it proved that in those years were complete waste. At the end, VMF was left with in state of learning and trying that didnt much required decades of slow introduction. Those mistakes that they have made with Kuznetsov could have been done in the fiftyes with out the extensive 'practicing' with Kievs and Moskvas... I severly fear that china migth make a same mistake and miss the chnage of life with Varyag. No unused russian carrers would be awaible in bargain prices in near future any longer, and some time, they just have to make the decission, and no pre-introduction can effectively parshe out all the beginers mistakes. Learn by doing!

Also, about training and conscription system. I have to agree with Popeye, NCO doing long time service are the key element in operating extensive equipment and its also main down fall of conscription armyes. USSR suffered it, And we finns do it also. In conscription system, NCOs are merely better trained service mens that serve bit longer than normal crew, but still enters reserve along with them. In finnish army, there are short time servicing former consrcript NCOs whit year- or two deal (they are the far most brickiest type of people existing, total human carbage...sorry, but thats what htey were, at least in my regiment ) Some how all career soldiers are typed as officers and requiring extensive academic training...

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darth sidious

Major weakness lack of effective asw may be improved if we buy the fearless class destoryer sort of ok in the past as the enemy is Taiwan but will be in the future

MIGleader

fearless? doesnt ring a bell. there was a fearless class assaut ship from the falklands, and a fearless class from ww2.

currently, chinas neighbors are very weak with submarines. but thats going to change with japan, sout korea, and india. china better hurrry to develop advanced sonars.

darth sidious

fearless= Udaloy in Russian I think not sure you can ask Akula

glory=slava

MIGleader

are u talking about the improved udaloy that ukraine is offering, or a udaloy II basic?

the udaloy is pretty good at asw, but as past events show, the chinese can build anything better than the russians if they put their minds to it. buying russian weapons is a sign of laziness.