Chinese submarines thread

[tphuang]

I think this is probably a good time to start thread just on the Chinese submarine capabilities. The article below is an interesting one:

Considering that it stated Yuan set a dpeth record for a conventional submarine, I'm guessing this is going to be one advance submarine. It looks like Song is already getting mass produced, so China is making sure that Yuan finishes all of its tests before being formally revealed.

http://www.spacewar.com/news/submarine-05r.html

New Chinese Missile Subs Pose Challenge To U.S.

By Martin Sieff
UPI Senior News Analyst
Washington (UPI) Oct 18, 2005
China's two new next-generation submarines with anti-ship missile capabilities pose a greater challenge to U.S. and Western fleets in the near future, World Net Daily reported this weekend.
According to a report by East-Asia-Intel.com last week, the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy has already completed 18 voyages with its new Yuan-class vessel, a conventionally-powered attack sub which is believed capable of firing anti-ship cruise missiles as well as standard torpedoes.

The new Yuan-class vessel has reportedly passed a series of performance tests and is ready to be deployed, East-Asia-Intel.com said, quoting Chinese news sources.

The Jinyangwang news site, reported the vessel "has now formally become a new member of the PLA Navy's submarine force." It went on to say the vessel had achieved 15 firsts during its initial cruises, which "included technical performance, development and construction quality assurances." The news agency also said the new sub set a depth record for a conventional submarine.

Discovery of the Yuan-class vessel came as a surprise to U.S. intelligence agencies, East-Asia-Intel said.

Meanwhile, China appears on the verge of deploying its newest SSBN, or nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine, the Type-094 class, which is being developed as a seagoing extension of Chinese nuclear weapons power projection, World Net Daily reported.

The Type-094 is a follow-on to earlier SSBNs produced by China, most recently the Type-093, a nuclear-powered attack vessel "similar to Russian second-generation designs such as the Victor III," according to an analysis from the American Federation of Scientists, or FAS.

The 093 carries the JL-1, a two-stage, solid-propellant weapon with a single nuclear-capable warhead with a yield between 200 and 300 kilotons and a range of 1,056 miles. A sea-launched version of China's land-based DF-21 missile, the JL-1, was initially developed for the Type-092, Xia-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile boat, which became operational in 1983, according to FAS.

China has also developed the JL-2, a three-stage, solid-fuel sea variant of China's DF-31 ballistic missile. It is capable of carrying multiple nuclear warheads -- as many as four, FAS says -- and has a range of 4,971 miles.

[darth sidious]

Mistake in the artical the sub carrying the JL-1 is the 092 not 093 also how does the americans know that the Yuan has alreadycoplete 18 voyages

PS does the yuan have AIP or sub lunched yj-62

[crazyinsane105]

Yuan definetely has the AIP but I am not sure about the yj-62 missile. I think either the yj-62 or the moskit will most likely used. There is a bigger question: does the Yuan have the capability to fire LACMs? If it does, then that could seriously boost the PLAN's strike capability against Taiwan and even the Americans stationed in Japan and Guam.

[darth sidious]

If the yuan can lunched the Mach 3 yj-62 then it willbe a serious threat to the japo/american fleet forming a gret wall at sea as for cruise missile i think it can use the russian club so that is not a problem

[bd popeye]

Mistake in the artical the sub carrying the JL-1 is the 092 not 093 also how does the americans know that the Yuan has alreadycoplete 18 voyages

Darth Sidious baby..got an answer for you..my son , a sonar tech in the USN, once told me this...I will para-phrase..."the best(safest)place for a Chinese sub is in it's homeport"

I keep reading these threads about the 092 & 093. Does anyone have any real, not "P S", pictures of either boat? If so please post.

[darth sidious]

popeye

read the artical agin 092 is the old modifyed han class carrying the jl-1 the 093 is the new pla attack sub with a 40knots speed. ARE you sure the new yuan and song are easy to track?

[bd popeye]

Originally Posted by darth sidious

popeye

read the artical agin 092 is the old modifyed han class carrying the jl-1 the 093 is the new pla attack sub with a 40knots speed. ARE you sure the new yuan and song are easy to track?

My son was refering nuke boats. Desiel subs are very hard if not impossible to track. The trouble with SSK's is that most are designed for littoral waters. most desiel boats range is limited and speed also(only 20 knots). Once they fire their torpedos or missiles they are going to be killed. Period.

Their greatest advantage is their quietness when operating on batteries. Nearly impossibe to find until they let loose their weapons. But as I posted many times before the USN is working on tracking deisel boats having contracted a Swedish SSK HMS Gotland to train with. I have no clue as to how the training has gone so far.

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/disp...story_id=18984

[darth sidious]

the new 093 is side to incorpate a hull made of AK-30 steel and two gas cooled reactores plus its side to be capable of carrying 16 sub lunched YJ-62 mach3 anti-ship missile !!! a bit like the russian p class

PS on ship with steam turbins do they lose speed after operating for many years ? the taiwanese gearing is noe capable of onle 23-25 knotes but their design speed was over 30?

[bd popeye]

Originally Posted by darth sidious

the new 093 is side to incorpate a hull made of AK-30 steel and two gas cooled reactores plus its side to be capable of carrying 16 sub lunched YJ-62 mach3 anti-ship missile !!! a bit like the russian p class

PS on ship with steam turbins do they lose speed after operating for many years ? the taiwanese gearing is noe capable of onle 23-25 knotes but their design speed was over 30?

It depends on how well it has been maintained. Those old Gearing class DD were designed to stem at 35 knots so they could accomapny CV's. but time has worn them down.

My son was on a Spruance class and it made over 30 knots the day before it was decomissioned. It was only 27 years old.

I also know the USS Midway made 32 knots just before it was decomissioned in 1992. It was 47 years old at the time.

[darth sidious]

the taiwanese gearing have poor maintince but after 50 years unless you replace the boiler and the turibines I dont think you can mprove the speed or can you ?
WHAT DOES TAIWAN DD's HAVE TO DO WITH CHINESE SUBS???

the taiwanese gearing are used for asw aginst chinese subs so its not that off topic can the same thing happen to the Knox in taiwanese navy they also used the steam turbin if their speed are reduced so does their effectiveness aginst chinese subs

[tphuang]

hey Popeye, I doubt there are any pictures of 093 and 094 right now, because they are considered to be strategic weapons.

As for YJ-62, Yuan definitely cannot launch it. It's 533 mm tubes are just not large enough.

AIP, the word is that Yuan does have it.

From Janes on Yuan,

Yuan Type 039A
As early as 1994 there were indications that China appeared to be attempting to build the Kilo in its own ship-yards [Richard Sharpe, Jane’s Fighting Ships, 1994-1995 (Coulsdon, Surrey, Eng.: Jane’s Information Group, 1994), p. 541].

The Yuan Type 039A is a non-nuclear powered attack submarine. It's existence was first noted in mid-2004 when a photograph of the completed submarine at China's Wuhan Shipyard was posted on a Chinese website. According to The Washington Times (July 16, 2004), American officials believe the submarine is diesel-powered. It has also been suggested that the new submarine may be comparable to the improved variant of the Russian Kilo class (Project 636) in terms of size and general performance.

The second Yuan was launched in December 2004.

The Wuhan Shipyard has also built the Type 039/G (Song class), Type 035 (Yuan class), Type 033G (Wuhan-A class) and Type 033 (Romeo class) diesel-electric submarines for the PLA Navy.

The Yuan class has a tail with diving planes similar to those of the Type 039G, and a Kilo-style teardrop shaped hull with a raised hump on top. Integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, the 039A is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel/electric powered submarines, and therefore much more difficult to be tracked.

Apart from indigenously developed submarine weapon systems such as indigenous active/passive-hoyuan torpedo and the YJ-8 (C-801) submarine-launched anti-ship missile, the Yuan class may also be capable of launching the latest Russian weapons (or their Chinese copies) such as the TEST-71MKE wire-guided torpedo, the 53-65KE wave-hoyuan torpedo, and even 3M-54E Club supersonic submarine-launched anti-ship missile.

The electronic systems onboard the Yuan class may include CCD camera, infrared/thermal image camera, laser range-finder, surface-search radar and radar warning receiver. Various weapon systems and sensors are integrated by a digitized combat data command and control system.

The new Yuan Class attack submarine is part of a greater Chinese naval buildup. With the risk of armed conflict over Taiwan always present, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) has invested heavily in submarines with the goal of converting them into a first-line of attack vis-a-vis carriers.

Darth, this thread is discussing Chinese subs, not Taiwanese efforts against it.

[IDonT]

It is in Submarine warfare that China truly lags behind. The USN's lead on this regard is enourmous. The 093 subs are the quitest SSN sub in the PLAN arsenal, but the USN has proven capability to detect and track the world's quitest SSN boats. China needs to invest in quieting technology for its SSN. The other side of the equation is detection. Can china detect a well handled LA class SSN? Does it possess the sonar suites to be able to do this?

SSK's, even with the AIP, are still very vulnerable due to the fact that they are useless above their 5 knot "quite" speed. At higher speeds, they are noisy, their batteries run out faster, etc. In comparison, the Seawolf has a "quite" speed of "more than" 20 knots, and that is using US sonar suites.

Training and tactics are the other pillar. The USN has been using nuke boats since the 60's. They had plenty of time to home their skills in the coldwar and know how to handle their boats. They have established doctrines and tradition.

[MIGleader]

Originally Posted by IDonT

It is in Submarine warfare that China truly lags behind. The USN's lead on this regard is enourmous. The 093 subs are the quitest SSN sub in the PLAN arsenal, but the USN has proven capability to detect and track the world's quitest SSN boats. China needs to invest in quieting technology for its SSN. The other side of the equation is detection. Can china detect a well handled LA class SSN? Does it possess the sonar suites to be able to do this?

SSK's, even with the AIP, are still very vulnerable due to the fact that they are useless above their 5 knot "quite" speed. At higher speeds, they are noisy, their batteries run out faster, etc. In comparison, the Seawolf has a "quite" speed of "more than" 20 knots, and that is using US sonar suites.

Training and tactics are the other pillar. The USN has been using nuke boats since the 60's. They had plenty of time to home their skills in the coldwar and know how to handle their boats. They have established doctrines and tradition.

seeing how in a taiwan conflict, chinese would be in a more defensive position, i see no difficulty for plan subs to move around quietlty. they would be postioned to intercept the carrier group, not chase the carrier group. china is indeed investing heavily on quieting teachnology. and with some many diesels and so much backgorund noise, some things bound to slip through.

[bd popeye]

seeing how in a taiwan conflict, chinese would be in a more defensive position, i see no difficulty for plan subs to move around quietlty. they would be postioned to intercept the carrier group, not chase the carrier group. china is indeed investing heavily on quieting teachnology. and with some many diesels and so much backgorund noise, some things bound to slip through.

Face it MIGleader the subs would be detecded. Eventually. If a P-3 did not find them. An Arliegh Burke would. Still can't find them? How about and LA class or a Tico or two? And don't forget SH-60 variants flying around looking for subs. Will something slip through? Maybe,.. but I would not want to be on that crew of that sub because if it goes undected, slips through and fires any weapons..well it's dead. Period.

What I would like to see is some real comprehensive information as to what electronics equipment, operating systems and weapons the PLAN subs have. I want no more info than a site like the USN or JMSDF puts out. I just wanna know the basics. But what can we expect afterall? The best info we can get about the PLAN is right here in Sinodefence.com. Good info here but as a China watcher I wanna see more.

Hey gotta a question..Why does not the PLA have a big web site with basic info like other nations do?????????? I just wanna know. Thank you!

[IDonT]

Originally Posted by MIGleader

seeing how in a taiwan conflict, chinese would be in a more defensive position, i see no difficulty for plan subs to move around quietlty. they would be postioned to intercept the carrier group, not chase the carrier group. china is indeed investing heavily on quieting teachnology. and with some many diesels and so much backgorund noise, some things bound to slip through.

In a Taiwan conflict, it China who will be on the offensive. It has to "offend" the Taiwanese.

Most of PLAN's most potent submarines are SSK's. Unfortunately these lack the speed and endurance of the SSN. Moving into position and remaining undetected while doing so will take a very long time. As I said, the top quite speed of an SSK's is at 5 knots. Furthermore, to get into position, the SSK's need to snorkel to replenished its batteries. AIP SSK's can spend longer periods underwater but they still rely on their supply of liquid oxygen on board (depends on the type of AIP). A prudent commander will not us this while transiting but during actual combat. Snorkeling is loud and your course will be plotted. Once plotted, your general area of operations will be known.

Lets see, the USN on occasion has 2 SSN's with its carrier. That is 24 SSN total for carrier escort. That roughly 50 percent of the USN submarine force. The question is, where is the other 50 percent? They are doing independent missions, acostic intelligence on PLAN naval ports, etc.

As for SSNs, PLAN has made significant strides in this area. However, I still hold reservations about the "victor III" capability of the 093. The first generation HAN class are very loud. To leap from this to a Victor III type isequivalent to jumping from the Mig 15 to the Mig 29 in a single generation. On a historical note, the VICTOR III is the first Russian boat to have serious quieting technology applied to it thanks to a Spy in the 70's. Before this, Soviet subs were very noisy.

The final leg is for the PLAN submarine sensor suite. How capable are their sonar? Do they have a towed array sonar? Can they detect an LA class sub on the prowl? I do not know about this area yet, but it is safe to assume that it has its ancestry with Russian designs.