Chinese submarines thread

[bd popeye]

The superior state of American ASW is in question when the Gotland Class AIP that is a design from the 80:th was quite successful in evading the US efforts to track it down. This is where 100 years of submarine knowhow gains the upper hand even when we have such a meager defence budget (5 billion USD).

The USN ASW is indeed superior. I challange you to name any other nation with superior ASW capablities. Please read my entire post before any retort is made. Thank you.

Mazepa. Question.. Have you seen the results of the excersises? If so please post a source. I'm very intrested to read them. You seem to know the Swedes have the upper hand. I think they do. My son that has a very high USN security clearance and is an instructor of advanced sonar technology is not even privvy to this information.

The USN and all other navies in the world have difficulty in tracking diesel subs when they are submerged running on batteries. A near impossible task.

The purpose of the HMS Gotland being in San Diego is to train the USN on hunting diesel subs as I have pointed out many times in the past. I have the utmost confidence that the USN will learn how to track these boats.

However some navies have even a difficult time tracking noisey nuke boats weather surfaced or submerged. The USN does not have difficulty tracking nuke boats.

Not only is the USN using HMS Gotland it recently returned to service it's last remaining desiel sub. USS Dolphin. I thought this boat was decomissioned after an accident in 2002. Check out this article.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/m...25dolphin.html

An excerpt from the article which is quite long.

""Even aside from its diesel power plant, the Dolphin is unlike anything else in the Navy. It doesn't go to war and seldom strays far from home.

The Navy uses the Dolphin, commissioned in 1968, to test new submarine systems. The ship dives deeper than any other U.S. naval sub and carries 12 tons of scientific research gear. It tried out the Navy's latest sonar system; completed the first successful submarine-to-aircraft, two-way laser communication; collected data on ocean acoustics; and launched a torpedo from a depth greater than any other sub.

In exercises with combat submarines, the Dolphin also frequently portrays the opposing team. It's a useful role because diesel ships make up the underwater fleets of most foreign navies.

"It's hard to simulate a small diesel submarine with a big nuke" model, Hasell said"""

[tphuang]

I wonder if PLAN can somehow modify the Song subs to put AIP on them. It will be a lot cheaper and faster to put AIP on these things than building 12 brand new Yuans. As for the exercises, it just shows that PLAN needs as many AIP SSKs as possible. What I'm wondering about is how far the Swedish sub was from the American DDGs in these exercises. Clearly, China does not have the expertise that Sweden has with the AIP subs, so it'd have a hard time achieving results similar to what the Swedish sub had.

[bd popeye]

Originally Posted by tphuang

I wonder if PLAN can somehow modify the Song subs to put AIP on them. It will be a lot cheaper and faster to put AIP on these things than building 12 brand new Yuans. As for the exercises, it just shows that PLAN needs as many AIP SSKs as possible. What I'm wondering about is how far the Swedish sub was from the American DDGs in these exercises. Clearly, China does not have the expertise that Sweden has with the AIP subs, so it'd have a hard time achieving results similar to what the Swedish sub had.

I think that would be very expensive. and would take years to finish. The best bet is to install AIP in all future PLAN SSK's.

You mentioned that the PRC does not have expertise in AIP. The PLAN also has very mediorce ASW. This is an area that the PLAN needs to improve.

[Sczepan]

I heard some rumors, that the 2003 accident of pennant No. 361 Ming class was following by testing of new AIP engines ...

[MIGleader]

Originally Posted by Sczepan

I heard some rumors, that the 2003 accident of pennant No. 361 Ming class was following by testing of new AIP engines ...

thats is rather strange...all the information given out said was the accident had been attributed to "mechanical malfuntion". the exact cause was not released. but the ship Had been participating in an excercise. maybe the chinese wanted to test how aip functioned in a real conflict.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by bd popeye

I think that would be very expensive. and would take years to finish. The best bet is to install AIP in all future PLAN SSK's.

You mentioned that the PRC does not have expertise in AIP. The PLAN also has very mediorce ASW. This is an area that the PLAN needs to improve.

Interesting, I think one of the problems with PLAN shipbuilding is that there is not enough shipyards to handle all the military orders. If installing AIP on existing 039As take much less time than building a Yuan, then it might be worth it. As for ASW, things are probably even bleakier than a lot of people realize. Consider this, most of our recent DDGs and FFGs have helicopter hangers for ASW helicopters presumably, yet we have no ASW helicopters to put on them. So sad..... btw, I read somewhere that the skymaster radars we bought from UK can be used for ASW. Is that true? I didn't know a radar can be used as sonar. Either way, sonar is supposedly one of the major ticket items in the recent years for PLAN. Let's hope they actually develop something useful.

[MIGleader]

doesnt china operate a number of ka-28s, and is looking into the ka-31 right now?

as for the sonar thing, i agree 100%. i just dont know what is taking china so long do aquire a good towed sonar. such technology is availible in the european "civilian" market.

[tphuang]

we did buy some Ka-28, but most of our DDGs still are built for Z-9C and we have like 4 of them right now!

We did develop Towed array sonar recently, I think it's on 054.

An article on Kilo

俄今年向中国交付8艘基洛型潜艇(图)

2005-11-16 14:10更新 来源：青年参考 第1页/共3页 << 上一页 | 下一页 >>

| 更多图片
据加拿大《汉和防务评论》报道，2005年是俄罗斯履行向中国交付8艘基洛636型潜艇合同的最后一年，该 刊主编平可夫特意实地参观为中国建造潜艇的四家工厂。在他的报道里，俄方表示自己打造的“整个建造过程 也是完美无缺的â€�。


俄国人感谢东方邻居



在浪涛不惊的波罗的海沿岸，两艘新造好的暗蓝色潜艇如同浮出水面的抹香鲸，宁静中蕴涵着肃杀的威严。俄海军 上将造船厂的技工指着它们向来访者解释：“瞧，没几天它 今日焦点 ： 快速订阅短信新闻



们就游回中国去了。â€�2002年5月，中俄签署价值16亿美元的8艘基洛636型潜艇采购合同，这笔â €œ世纪采购â€�几乎拯救了俄罗斯濒临死亡的舰艇工业，按照俄国家武器出口公司的指令，圣彼得堡的海军上 将造船厂、北德文斯克的“星星â€�造船厂、下诺夫哥罗德的红色索尔莫沃造船厂以及远东共青城造船厂平 分了工作量。于是，从遥远的北欧到中俄界河黑龙江的对岸，到处传来久违的车床轰鸣声与电焊枪火光，一位海军 上将造船厂的老技师告诉平可夫：“我们真要感谢东方的邻居，是他们给我们工作。从苏联解体后，这里就没 有像今天这样兴旺过。â€�


这四家造船厂正对基洛636型潜艇进行最后的设备安装和海试工作，他们均表示一定会在今年最后两个月内完成 潜艇的交付工作。俄方称，每艘潜艇的海试都需要3～4个月，目前进度最晚的红色索尔莫沃造船厂已把它的基洛 636型潜艇移交俄海军克雷洛夫测试院进行国家验收。


平可夫经过观察后写道，8艘基洛636型潜艇的建造非常顺利，“整个建造过程也是完美无缺的â€�，斯 拉夫特色的拖沓与敷衍根本没有出现，整个工地都显得井井有条，“也许中国的钞票激发了工人的干劲â€� 。基洛艇获得四项技术升级


美国海军曾出版过一本《全球潜艇挑战》的小册子，其中对基洛级潜艇的描述只用了一个单词来形容，那就是†œ恐怖â€�(horrific)。据俄方介绍，8艘基洛636型潜艇的作战系统又获得四项重大 升级。


首先，潜艇上安装了3M-54E潜射反舰导弹和3M-14E对地攻击巡航导
弹，前者由发射助推器、亚音速低空巡航级和超音速有效载荷级组成，射程达到220公里，它保证潜艇能够在航 母战斗群的打击范围之外发起“致命攻击â€�，它携带的大型战斗部足以让宙斯盾巡洋舰级别的舰艇当场瘫 痪。而后者则使基洛636型潜艇具备了与美国洛杉矶级核潜艇一样的“外科手术â€�打击手 段，3M-14E导弹与著名的战斧导弹类似，在卫星导航系统的帮助下，可以在150公里来打中“一间办公室â€� 。

Talks about Club missile here - 3M-54E is the one with 220 KM range and 3M-14E is the LACM with 150 KM range.




新。伴随着基洛636型潜艇的落户，中国进口了多种俄制鱼雷，第一种是UGST，由MORTEPLOTEK NIKI生产，口径533毫米，采用模块化声纳天线阵列诱导系统和线导系统，速度35～50节、射程40～ 50公里、高爆弹头重300公斤、发射深度400米，中国海军也能在现代级驱逐舰上发射。第二种是 SET-72EM1/M2系列鱼雷，前者是电动鱼雷，口径400毫米，长4.5米，重量765公斤，爆炸威力相当于135公斤T NT装药，它可以在潜艇和水面舰艇上发射。第三种是TE-2型533毫米口径鱼雷，配备了遥控的线导装置，确保TE-2能够进入其诱导系统的作用范围，弹头装药为450公斤，使用寿命10年。新潜艇还将装备俄罗斯研制的采用 超空泡推进技术的超高速鱼雷，这种鱼雷的航速超过200节，这一点可能会使美国海军感到忧虑。
This is the interesting bit on torpedo. Apparently, China bought many different types of torpedo this time.

One is called UGST, 533mm diameter, 35-50 knots, 40-50 KM in range and 300 KM warhead. Can also be equipped on 956.
second is called SET-72EM1/M2, with 0.4 m in diameter, length 4.5 meter, weight 765 kg.
third is TE-2 with 533 mm diameter and has a wardhead of 450 KM?
The final one mentionned has to be shkval, there is no other torpedo with a speed of 200 knots.


第三，与早期的基洛级潜艇不同，这批基洛636型潜艇在作战系统设计方面已经非常西方化。新潜艇采用两套C 4I系统，就是为了提高整个系统的可靠性。它由 AGAT设计的OMNIBOMNIBUS-E多功能指挥管制显示系统和AVRORA设计的LAMA-EKM多功能指挥控制系统组成，前者有三台双层多功能显示器，后者由一台双层多功能显示系统组成。L AMA-EKM自动化信息控制系统通过AICS实现了信息综合管理，涵盖了导航、声纳、雷达、潜航深度测量、机械控 制、电力等子系统的管理，其电力消耗为5.5千瓦。OMNIBOMNIBUS-E作战系统主要用于武器控制，它能够同时跟踪40～50个水下目标，并且使用3M-54E导弹攻击其中的两个。LAMA-EKM也拥有武器控制功能(下一页)
Uses omnibomnibus-e command and control and has the ability to track 40 to 50 submerged targets. It mentions another command and control system with the ability to sort out 50 targets, track 10 and use 1 to 4 torpedoes to engage 1 to 2 targets. Need 3 seconds to prepare an attack.
，综合信息显示系统可以处理50个目标，跟踪其中的10个，一次可使用1～4枚鱼雷或导弹攻击其中1～2个 目标，攻击准备时间小于三秒钟。


最后，基洛636型潜艇采用了顶尖的模块化设计，为将来添置新设备安排了预留空间。由于基洛级潜艇设计寿命 为30年，每10年作一次大修或性能提升，未来性能提高包括加装AIP系统，届时潜航时间可增加到两周以上 ，使敌人更难找到它的踪迹。


对“台独â€�不是好兆头



中国人民海军(PLAN)的战略制定者把潜艇视为地位高于航空母舰的重要武器，庞大的基洛级潜艇群一旦与中 国的数十艘国产潜艇结合，将构成西太平洋近海地区最令人羡慕的作战力量。密切注视中国海军发展的美国海军退 役少将迈克尔·麦克德威特认为，潜艇作战力量“是中国海军发展战略的关键组成部队之一â€�，并呼吁 美国海军重视 对中国海军潜艇力量的研究。对谋求独立并试图与美日形成对华战略封锁线的台湾民进党当局而言，这的确不是一 个好兆头。


平可夫强调，“打赢高技术局部战争â€�是解放军目前发展的核心，如何打赢现代条件下的海上局部战争更 是解放军面临的最严峻课题。在以往几次台海危机中，人民海军潜艇部队所表现的威力以及耐力，都让美日等国刮 目相看，目前整体活动半径可以覆盖离岸200海里的专属经济区水域，未来解放军潜艇部队要达到的目标，将可 能涉及保障离岸500海里的海域航运畅通。


但必然要牵扯到台湾问题，台湾对21世纪海洋中国具有战略意义。台湾位于西太平洋列岛中最具战略性的地理位 置，位于中国漫长海岸线的中心。以台湾为中心，以1000海里为半径，向太平洋做一个扇形延伸，可以建立一 个具有相当战略纵深的防御网，对接近中国海岸线的敌对武力，提供早期预警以及积极防御的战略态势。反之，如 果台湾成为敌对势力，台湾就会如同一把利刀抵在中国的胸前。因此，解放军潜艇部队力量的提升也可以被看作对 台军事斗争准备的重要一环。


链接


基洛级潜艇小传


基洛级潜艇是苏联20世纪80年代研制的柴电潜艇，尽管岁月不饶人，但它凭借自身优良的设计以及超强的静音 效果，继续在各国海军序列中挑起大梁。基洛级潜艇采用双壳体结构，生存力很强，储备浮力高达32%，为乘员 和设备提供更多使用空间，并留有改装余地，而美国潜艇储备浮力一般为13%。它是目前世界上静音效果最好的 柴电潜艇之一，有“海底黑洞â€�的绰号，目前只有美国海军的超低频被动拖曳阵声纳或海底声纳系统才能 勉强探测到它的行踪。


据英国《简氏战舰年鉴》介绍，20世纪90年代，中国为加速水下兵力的现代化，采取一项重大措施是引进俄罗 斯的基洛级潜艇。采购合同在1994年与位于下诺夫哥罗德市的红色索尔莫沃造船厂签订，1995年2月和1 1月前两艘交货，编号为364和365；1998年夏天和年底，又有两艘交货，编号为366和 367。这4艘基洛级潜艇，每艘平均价为2.5亿美元，前两艘为早期877EKM型，原是罗马尼亚海军订购 的，但由于罗马尼亚无法支付购买费用，后来转售给中国。后两艘为改进的636型。


该艇水面排水量2300吨，水下排水量3050吨，水下最高航速20节，续航力42天，最大航程10000 公里，最大潜深300米，作战潜深240米，乘员52人。在武器配备上，装有6个533毫米鱼雷发射管，能 发射多种型号鱼雷，最多可携带18 枚鱼雷，鱼雷采用压缩气体式发射，配有快速装填设备，6枚鱼雷可在15秒内发射完毕，两分钟后可发射第二批 。它还有一个“绝活â€�，配有一部防空导弹发射架，足以对付潜艇的天敌——反潜巡逻机。(闻 宣)

The good news is that at least the kilos are better than the other kilos in service, but the bad news is that this is still a 70s design no matter how much you modernize it.

[darth sidious]

There are many types of AIPS the earlist being the german walter engine of WWII. the type swedden operates is rather primitive compare with new german or russian design. also the one china is intrested in is different from the swedeish one so its rather useless to compare them

[coolieno99]

Originally Posted by darth sidious

There are many types of AIPS the earlist being the german walter engine of WWII. the type swedden operates is rather primitive compare with new german or russian design. also the one china is intrested in is different from the swedeish one so its rather useless to compare them

The French AIP is also somewhat similiar to the Swedish AIP. A bit complicated. You're right, the German design is probably the most elegant. It's based on hydrogen fuel cells. Less moving parts, making it even more quieter than the Swedish AIP, and probably has longer endurance, since the fuel cells packs more energy in a given volume....

[Mazepa]

The trials with the Gotland Class in San Diego has been a feather in the hat of course for a Swedish military that has not been in a war for more then 200 years. I get the feeling that the US military put the "Top Secret" stamp on everything just to evade any outside opinion while the Swedish military is able to report more freely about the trials and the results from it. This is our right as citizens of Sweden according to the Opennessprinciple that it there to make sure that the state doesent do alot of undemocratic things without the public knowing it.... But as always the still do, but shit always smells, so lately the goverment has been quite embarrissed when CIA came here and took two Egyptians to Kario for torture. So now we will kick them out of power for sure But thats another story.....

My point when it comes to the trials was that in these games the US army knew that a sub was in the area, they were on their own home turf and against a advanced, but still old design and it still proved to be a tough game for US to find it. You should never underestimate your enemy, but i get the feeling that USA always does. The reason why US navy was impressed with the Gotland Class capacity was because they had already assumed that it would be a easy target even before the trials.

[IDonT]

Originally Posted by Mazepa

My point when it comes to the trials was that in these games the US army knew that a sub was in the area, they were on their own home turf and against a advanced, but still old design and it still proved to be a tough game for US to find it. You should never underestimate your enemy, but i get the feeling that USA always does. The reason why US navy was impressed with the Gotland Class capacity was because they had already assumed that it would be a easy target even before the trials.

You have misunderstand the US intentions of leasing the Gotland subs. It is used to developed NEW tactics for prosecuting and advance AIP capable SSK. The US has always been proactive in that regards, the profeliferation of AIP capable SSK has not yet mature, yet the USN has endevoured to developed ways to prosecute it before Russia and China has even fielded a single AIP capable SSK into their fleet. I would not call that underestimation.

The Gotland class is far from an old design. The first one was commissioned in 1996.

Despite these improvements, the AIP SSK is still limited due to its very low endurance. It is more of a defensive, movable minefield type weapon, it will frustrate the USN, but it is hardly a war winning weapon. The new Seawolf Class SSN has a quite speed of more than 20 knots, which means it produces the same noise level at 20 knots as an AIP SSK does at 5.

[bd popeye]

Mazepa, IDon't is correct in everthing he has posted. The USN contracted the Swedish Navy to provide the HMS Gotland for ASW training. The USN is indeed proactive in ASW. Since the end of the Cold War and the Russian sub threat was deminished the USN fell short on ASW training by it's own admission. But now is back on the right path. This link is somewhat dated but very relievent. Please read the first few paragraphs....

http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review.../art4-sp05.htm

If you were to visit the ASW center in San Diego CA where my son is stationed you would indeed be impressed. I have visited him there and I was very impressed. I lived in San Diego for 26 years.

Here is an article about the USN contracting the Gotland fronm the US DoD

http://www.dod.mil/releases/2004/nr20041029-1452.html

October 29, 2004

U.S. and Sweden to Conduct Anti-Submarine Warfare Training
The U.S. Navy and the Swedish Navy will begin a bilateral training effort that provides a Swedish advanced diesel submarine and crew for U.S. Navy fleet anti-submarine warfare (ASW) training.

Commencing in early 2005, the partnership will focus on ASW system test and evaluation as well as the combined development of naval capabilities.

“Recent establishment of the Fleet ASW Command in San Diego, Calif., combined with the planned deployment of a state-of-the-art Swedish diesel sub and crew to the West Coast, provides our forces innovative opportunities to train during combined exercises,� said U.S. Fleet Forces Command Director of Readiness and Training Rear Adm. Don Bullard.

The Swedish Navy will provide an advanced diesel submarine, a Gotland-class air independent propulsion (AIP) submarine, for the U.S. Navy’s long-term use. ASW training will be conducted from San Diego. The Swedish submarine will be Swedish-flagged, commanded, manned and operated. U.S. Navy personnel will be onboard the Swedish submarine as riders and observers for training purposes.

“This U.S.-Swedish effort will demonstrate the further development of international interoperability between the two nations,� said Inspector of the Royal Swedish Navy, Rear Adm. Jörgen Ericsson. “Sweden is currently reorganizing the Swedish armed forces with extensive focus on international operations in which the Swedish Navy contributes a unique capability in maritime security in the littorals.�

The mission of this training effort is to conduct focused and integrated ASW training and assessment of the U.S. Navy’s fleet ASW operations, tactics and doctrine, and ASW education. The U.S.-Swedish effort will focus on the following improvements to:

1) The performance of fleet operators on all ASW platforms;

2) The ASW performance assessment at theater, carrier/expeditionary strike group, unit- level ship, aviation squadron and submarine levels against standardized, common metrics;

3) Individual student ASW training and qualifications;

4) Overall theater undersea warfare capability.

Nations around the globe continue to acquire quiet and lethal submarines designed to operate in littoral regions and the open ocean. With advanced weaponry developments, the nature of ASW has changed, increasing the risks to operations at sea.

Control of littoral environments is essential to ensuring prompt access for joint forces moving ashore from the sea. Future ASW effectiveness in this critical area demands a dedicated focus on and sensors, new operating concepts and fleet ASW training. Through U.S. and Swedish efforts, both navies are meeting this challenge head on.

“This will vastly improve our capability to conduct realistic, effective antisubmarine warfare training that is so critical to the Navy’s ability to accomplish our mission,� added Bullard. “It also expands our efforts in developing coalition ASW tactics, techniques and procedures. This is a great opportunity for both navies and we are very excited about it."

This bilateral effort is a great example of the U.S. and Swedish navies’ commitment to ensure that our naval service and those of our allies and partners retain operational primacy at sea.

[MIGleader]

Originally Posted by IDonT

You have misunderstand the US intentions of leasing the Gotland subs. It is used to developed NEW tactics for prosecuting and advance AIP capable SSK. The US has always been proactive in that regards, the profeliferation of AIP capable SSK has not yet mature, yet the USN has endevoured to developed ways to prosecute it before Russia and China has even fielded a single AIP capable SSK into their fleet. I would not call that underestimation.

The Gotland class is far from an old design. The first one was commissioned in 1996.

Despite these improvements, the AIP SSK is still limited due to its very low endurance. It is more of a defensive, movable minefield type weapon, it will frustrate the USN, but it is hardly a war winning weapon. The new Seawolf Class SSN has a quite speed of more than 20 knots, which means it produces the same noise level at 20 knots as an AIP SSK does at 5.

which is much like how many countries are developing radars and sensors to counter stealth aircraft, although the fielding of stealth planes is not mature.

AIP gives a sub an undisturbed underwater time of 30 days. after that, the ssk can use its regualer recharges. the seawolf is just about as developed as an chinese aip ssk is. i wouldnt judge the abilities of ssks relative to such a new and advanced sub.

[IDonT]

Originally Posted by MIGleader

which is much like how many countries are developing radars and sensors to counter stealth aircraft, although the fielding of stealth planes is not mature.

AIP gives a sub an undisturbed underwater time of 30 days. after that, the ssk can use its regualer recharges. the seawolf is just about as developed as an chinese aip ssk is. i wouldnt judge the abilities of ssks relative to such a new and advanced sub.

Yeah but the difference is that no other country has stealth aircraft that is comparable to the US stealth aircraft to practice on.....that makes a difference. You can have your theories about stealth detection, but without anything to practice it on, its worthless. The Gotland was leased for this purpose, to figure out what approaches work and what doesn't. So by the time the "real deal" comes, USN has already know most of the tricks an AIP SSK sub driver will do and how to counter it.

AIP sub still needs oxygen to run its engines, they just use it in a liquid form in reserve tanks. Once the supply runs out, it needs to be refueled. Recharging batteries via running the diesel and snorkeling is very loud.

Then you have to look at the flip side. An AIP is silent and hard to detect in the littoral environment because of clutter, etc. But those factors do not descriminate, the SSN, especially the USN ones, are also hard to detect in that environment. Add to the fact that USN sonar technology are far more advance than China's, then they have a real edge over the PLAN counterparts.

ASW is the achilles heel of the PLAN. It is telling when one of the main ASW weapons on its warships are the ASW rockets, which are unguided and lacks the range. Furthermore, the sonar suite they are using are Russian (I could be wrong), which have had difficulty in detecting and tracking an LA class sub. But the development of a towed array sonar, new ASW helos, and the new 093 SSN and Yuan SSKs are a step in the right direction