Chinese submarines thread

[MIGleader]

Originally Posted by IDonT

In a Taiwan conflict, it China who will be on the offensive. It has to "offend" the Taiwanese.

Most of PLAN's most potent submarines are SSK's. Unfortunately these lack the speed and endurance of the SSN. Moving into position and remaining undetected while doing so will take a very long time. As I said, the top quite speed of an SSK's is at 5 knots. Furthermore, to get into position, the SSK's need to snorkel to replenished its batteries. AIP SSK's can spend longer periods underwater but they still rely on their supply of liquid oxygen on board (depends on the type of AIP). A prudent commander will not us this while transiting but during actual combat. Snorkeling is loud and your course will be plotted. Once plotted, your general area of operations will be known.

Lets see, the USN on occasion has 2 SSN's with its carrier. That is 24 SSN total for carrier escort. That roughly 50 percent of the USN submarine force. The question is, where is the other 50 percent? They are doing independent missions, acostic intelligence on PLAN naval ports, etc.

As for SSNs, PLAN has made significant strides in this area. However, I still hold reservations about the "victor III" capability of the 093. The first generation HAN class are very loud. To leap from this to a Victor III type isequivalent to jumping from the Mig 15 to the Mig 29 in a single generation. On a historical note, the VICTOR III is the first Russian boat to have serious quieting technology applied to it thanks to a Spy in the 70's. Before this, Soviet subs were very noisy.

The final leg is for the PLAN submarine sensor suite. How capable are their sonar? Do they have a towed array sonar? Can they detect an LA class sub on the prowl? I do not know about this area yet, but it is safe to assume that it has its ancestry with Russian designs.

you dontget it. the plan subs are not attacking taiwan!!! the pla is. the plan's job would to be support the landings, destroy the taiwanese navy, and Defend the invasion force from any american ships.

the plan has a week or more to manuver its subs into postion before the americans arrive. i really dont doubt chinas abilities to make "great" leaps. They went from j-7 to j-10 in 15 years. the hans were in design since the 60s. plus, with alot of russian assistance, much of the "leap' has already been taken for the chinese.

[tphuang]

to popeye, this is a photo of the latest 636M that China purchased. I'm not sure what you can make out of this.

According to this Kanwa article, 636M uses a lot of the latest electronics Russians put on Amur, so you can get an idea of the electronics on it I guess.

The Yuan sub's electronics was talked about a little bit in the front.

As for 093, I personally think we can expect it to be initially equivalent to later models of Victor III, because China got a lot of help from the Rubin on this proejct. According to that Taiwanese military magazine, the noise level of 093 might be 130 db, but can be lowered to 110 db later. Also, it uses engine that can cool, so it can go at over 40 knots. Think about it this way, if you equip a fighter from the 60th with 90s avionics, it would be better than planes from the 70s. Same case here, the hull might be from 30 years ago, but the other components used are pretty up to date. The decline in 094 is expected to be even more dramatic (165 to 120).

[darth sidious]

the chinese will not attempt to attack an american fleet with just one sub insted large numbers will be group into a pack to lunched a combined attack one sub can not beat the whole asw syatem but many of them can! also the primary atttack weapon will be long ranged missile so they stand agood chance

IDONT

your commenr on the russian sub are not that accurate the info brought by the walker spy ring is mostly on the position of american ship and the Victory II is not quiet enough so they built the Victory III the first russian sub to take steeps toward quieting is the P-class with reduce machinery noise and rubber skkin .

I dont know where you got the idea that the 093 isa victory III but fromwhat i have heard its moire like the A-class designed for high speed

[IDonT]

Originally Posted by darth sidious

the chinese will not attempt to attack an american fleet with just one sub insted large numbers will be group into a pack to lunched a combined attack one sub can not beat the whole asw syatem but many of them can! also the primary atttack weapon will be long ranged missile so they stand agood chance

IDONT

your commenr on the russian sub are not that accurate the info brought by the walker spy ring is mostly on the position of american ship and the Victory II is not quiet enough so they built the Victory III the first russian sub to take steeps toward quieting is the P-class with reduce machinery noise and rubber skkin .

I dont know where you got the idea that the 093 isa victory III but fromwhat i have heard its moire like the A-class designed for high speed

There are many problems associated with a mass sub attack. Firstly, how does a sub commander identify an underwater sonar contact as a Friend or foe. At such proximity, there will be many incidences of (not-so) friendly fire. Second, with many subs operating at once in a small localized area, once one is located all are located. Thirdly, the US has some 50+ SSN's, the PLAN arsenal does not have enough subs to outnumber it.

I got the 093 info from sinodefence.
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/093.asp
t appeared that China had encountered a range of technical difficulties in developing the Type 093 SSN, including nuclear radiation and noise reduction. It was reported that Russian assistance was sought to solve these critical issues in the late 1990s. The Type 093 SSN is expected to be similar in size and performance to Russian second-generation submarines such as Victor-III class. However, the Type 093 SSN would still represent a significant technological achievement comparing to the first generation Type 091.

[coolieno99]

Originally Posted by IDonT

There are many problems associated with a mass sub attack. Firstly, how does a sub commander identify an underwater sonar contact as a Friend or foe. At such proximity, there will be many incidences of (not-so) friendly fire. Second, with many subs operating at once in a small localized area, once one is located all are located. Thirdly, the US has some 50+ SSN's, the PLAN arsenal does not have enough subs to outnumber it......

Since the subs are launching relatively long range missiles, they don't have to be position close to one another. Besides the tactics of mass sub attack were used in WW 2 with good success by the German navy.

[IDonT]

Originally Posted by coolieno99

Since the subs are launching relatively long range missiles, they don't have to be position close to one another. Besides the tactics of mass sub attack were used in WW 2 with good success by the German navy.

Mig, I understand what you are saying, but the subs still need to get into position to defend the fleet.

In WWII, Sub vs Sub battles were very rare. The German identified their targets via visual means. In these battles, the German U-boat skipper is assured that all underwater sonar contacts were friendly. Today however, things are very differrent. The USN policy has always been that the best way to destroy a sub is with another sub.

As for coordinating long range missiles from submarines, you have to ensure you have very good communications with them. Highly problematic, even for the USN. USN subs usually operate alone because of this.

[tphuang]

okay, i'm going to stay away from the American strategies on defeating the Chinese subs, since I'm sure they have plenty stored up. Just commenting on 093, I'm not refuting that the design is based on Victor III or that it got a lot of help from Rubin to do it that way. But, modern noise reduction techniques and electronics and torpedoes and cruise missiles can be put on 093 that will make it better than Victor III back in its days.

[Mr_C]

Originally Posted by bd popeye

Face it MIGleader the subs would be detecded. Eventually. If a P-3 did not find them. An Arliegh Burke would. Still can't find them? How about and LA class or a Tico or two? And don't forget SH-60 variants flying around looking for subs. Will something slip through? Maybe,.. but I would not want to be on that crew of that sub because if it goes undected, slips through and fires any weapons..well it's dead. Period.

Hey bd popeye, just pretend that u r a desiel sub captain and u get close enough to ur enemy undetected... u let lose ur weapons etc... how do u think a desiel sub get escape or survive afterwards. What do u think would be a tactic for survival in such a situation?

[IDonT]

Originally Posted by Mr_C

Hey bd popeye, just pretend that u r a desiel sub captain and u get close enough to ur enemy undetected... u let lose ur weapons etc... how do u think a desiel sub get escape or survive afterwards. What do u think would be a tactic for survival in such a situation?

Let me try a stab at this....

Assuming I am a captain of a Kilo SSK, the moment I fire my torpedoes, I am detected by the enemy. The next course of action is to dive deep and run silent. At this point, the enemy will saturate the area with sonobouys and helo dipping sonar. Some of this will emmit active sonar. In order to avoid detection, I would have hide across different salinisation (sp) and temperature layers of the ocean. These layers can masked my noised signiture as well as bounced back active sonar. Then set a course out of the area, at maximum quite speed (5 knots), before the battery runs out.

[AssassinsMace]

These threads seem to keep experiencing deja vu all over again.

Like before, no answer to the fact that the British Royal Navy in war games, with I believe it was the Norwegians, had to be cancelled because one SSK was sinking the Royal Navy and all their advanced ASW technology and tactics. As a result, the US is leasing one of their SSKs for training. So apparently the US Navy is not fully up-to-date on the latest tactics.

Why all the fuss over China's military buildup if with all its inferior technology and tactics can be beaten so easily?

Which brings another point brought up once again... war, if and when it happens, won't be fought in the next couple of minutes. So today ain't tomorrow!

[bd popeye]

Originally Posted by IDonT

Let me try a stab at this....

Assuming I am a captain of a Kilo SSK, the moment I fire my torpedoes, I am detected by the enemy. The next course of action is to dive deep and run silent. At this point, the enemy will saturate the area with sonobouys and helo dipping sonar. Some of this will emmit active sonar. In order to avoid detection, I would have hide across different salinisation (sp) and temperature layers of the ocean. These layers can masked my noised signiture as well as bounced back active sonar. Then set a course out of the area, at maximum quite speed (5 knots), before the battery runs out.

IDon't hit the nail on the head. You would have to "Run silent and run deep" to avoid detection. You would have to stay submerged as long and deep as possible to have any chance of survial. Your crew had be better be mentally prepared for such a task and realize there chance of surviving is small. If they survive and surface they will have to run a guantlet to get to friendly waters. And if the do get to there homeport the port it will more than likely be blown to smitherenes. Fact.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by bd popeye

IDon't hit the nail on the head. You would have to "Run silent and run deep" to avoid detection. You would have to stay submerged as long and deep as possible to have any chance of survial. Your crew had be better be mentally prepared for such a task and realize there chance of surviving is small. If they survive and surface they will have to run a guantlet to get to friendly waters. And if the do get to there homeport the port will more than likely be blown to smitherenes. Fact.

I think in the events that the submarine is facing such overwhelmingly strong opposition, the crew would know its in a kamikaze mission before they went in. Besides, their chance of survival will still probably be slightly better than that of the surface ships.

[bd popeye]

Before this thread "sinks" into that old subject..How do you sink a USN CVN?
Let's move on with a discussion about the PLAN sub force shall we? OK!!

I know what kind of training the USN gives their sub sailors. . Enlisted sub sailors get 6 weeks or more(up to 6 months) of speicalized training before being assigned to a submarine. This link will tell you all about it.

https://www.npdc.navy.mil/slc/nss/nssa.htm

Ok so now somebody post the PLAN sub school link.....I'm waiting..

Honestly I'm skeptical of any service that uses conscripts for their main force. Not because of the quality of the conscript but the amount of time they spend in service. Usally 2 years. Too little time. You can't possibly train anyone on modern day hi-tech equipmnet in such a short period of time. My son is a sonar tech(surface). He spent 20 months in school learning his feild as part of his USN training. Does anyone in this forum have any first hand knowledge about how the PLAN trains it's sub sailors? How many of the sub sailors are carreer professionals? I would love to know.

[tphuang]

actually popeye, I know very little about sonar, and would like to know more. Do you know where I can read up on this? I read stuff like hull mounted sonar, variable depth sonar and towed array sonar, but have no idea what each actually does.

[IDonT]

Originally Posted by tphuang

actually popeye, I know very little about sonar, and would like to know more. Do you know where I can read up on this? I read stuff like hull mounted sonar, variable depth sonar and towed array sonar, but have no idea what each actually does.

Here is a very basic info about sonar.

Hull mounted sonar are mounted on the hull of a ship, near the front. It looks like a huge bulge in its front when the ship is in dry dock.
Bow mounted sonar are like hull mounted but mounted in the front end of the submarine. The reason why they are on the front is that it is the farthest part from the propeller, the noisiest part of the ship.

Both of these sonar can hear in all directions except to the areas where the ship/sub is blocking it, it is usually in the rear or baffles. To compensate for this, the towed array sonar is developed.

Towed Array sonar is sonar that is towed behind the ship. These could be several miles long and they cover the rear quarter of the ship/sub. Also since there is less noise from the host ship, these are more effective at hearing than the bow/hull mounted sonar. Its main weakness is that it takes a while to deploy and retract. If there is a hostile sub nearby, your mobility is compromised.

Dipping sonars are used by helicopters and are literally dipped into the water at prescribe depth. As I have written earlier, different water temperatures and salinity can block and mask certain sounds that sonar on a different layer will not hear. Dipping sonars can go down and penetrate these layers so you can hear better. Submarines can also do this by moving between layers.

Sonobouys are disposable "sonar" carried by aircraft such as the P-3. They float in the surface transmit their data to the aircraft. Theyc ome in both active and passive modes, as all other forms of sonar-except for the towed array.