China Coast Guard and Patrol vessels

Originally Posted by getready

Yeah, I do agree that having the largest ship for coast patrol isn't the most important. Better to have adequate numbers as well as speed and flexibility. Anyone knows if the current number of ships is enough for the Chinese coast guard to do a sufficient job?

By the time this round of capability surge is completed the combined PRC maritime law enforcement fleet will be very close to the size of the JCG, but right not it's definitely not sufficient to do its job, not even close. The services need medium size high performance cutters to out maneuver JCG in the ECS, large long endurance cutters to patrol SCS, and maritime patrol aircraft for both areas. Fleet expansion is expected to continue well into the middle of the decade.

Originally Posted by hmmwv

By the time this round of capability surge is completed the combined PRC maritime law enforcement fleet will be very close to the size of the JCG, but right not it's definitely not sufficient to do its job, not even close. The services need medium size high performance cutters to out maneuver JCG in the ECS, large long endurance cutters to patrol SCS, and maritime patrol aircraft for both areas. Fleet expansion is expected to continue well into the middle of the decade.

do you know what kind of roles the different agencies take up? There is also an expansion in FLEC, Maritime Police and MSA. It's never been too apparent to me what each of them do differently in practice.

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

For coast guard I don't think having massive tonnage is so important

I mean the biggest China coast guard vessels is like 5000 ton but Japan is still one step bigger the PLH31 is like the size and weight of a DDG around 7500 tons!! What's the need for such a large coast guard ship? Better to keep tonnage low and have more of them

Yes few large ones here and there maybe but not more than say 5,000 tons that's enough to hear good medical facility's etc

5000 tons or more is only useful if there is a need for long range patrols. The Japanese one was meant to provide protection for ships transporting nuclear fuel for the country's powerplants.

Originally Posted by tphuang

do you know what kind of roles the different agencies take up? There is also an expansion in FLEC, Maritime Police and MSA. It's never been too apparent to me what each of them do differently in practice.

CMS: territorial water EEZ general law enforcement, maintain sovereignty.
MSA: maritime safety and resuce
FLEC: fishing related law enforcement
CCG: criminal law enforcement
Customs: anti smuggling

Originally Posted by joshuatree

5000 tons or more is only useful if there is a need for long range patrols. The Japanese one was meant to provide protection for ships transporting nuclear fuel for the country's powerplants.

Let's remind everyone that it was conducting a ship carrying used fuel to the reprocessing plant in the UK and taking the plutonium from the previous batch back to Japan, that Pu to be used in MOX fuel assemblies, pretty dangerous it seems, or in a Japanese fast reactor, even more dangerous in view of Japanese nuclear practices, or, worst, to be used in bombs. The Pu should be heavily contaminated by a heavier Pu isotope ( Pu 240 ) that produces alpha radiation making it not suitable for building bombs, but would the British tell us if it is not?

Two new "old" CMS boats converted from retired PLAN 037 sub-chasers. Hai Jian 20 and Hai Jian 32. All original weapons have been removed, and upper deck structure has been extensively modified.

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One easy way for China rapidly to expand her fleet of patrol ships under civilian flag is to transfer naval units to the two semi-militarised agencies with close ties to PLAN, China Marine Surveillance (CMS) and Fisheried Law Enforcement Command (FLEC) that constitute China’s ”disputed islands battle force”.

And this is exactly what PLAN has been doing these last months. The list of ships being transferred to CMS comprises 11 units:

Type 051 LUDA class destroyers 131 NANJING and 162 NANNING
Type 918 WOLEI class minelayer 814 LUOYANG, now Hai Jian 112
Type 625C intelligence ship Nan Diao 411 ex Hai Yang 11, now Hai Jian 168
Type 813 intelligence ship 852 QIMINGXING ex Nan Diao 350 ex Xiang Yang Hong 21, now Hai Jian 169
Type 210 YANBING class icebreaker Hai Bing 723, now Hai Jian 111
QIONGSHA class troopp transport Nan Yun 830
Type 635 I YANLAI class hydrographical vessel Dong Ce 226
All three TUZHONG class ocean salvage tugs:
Bei Tuo 710, now Hai Jian 110
Dong Tuo 830, now Hai Jian 137
Nan Tuo 154, now Hai Jian 167

131 and Dong Ce 226 are being converted at Shenjia, Shanghai, 162 and Nan Yun 830 at Huangpu, Guangzhou.

The other ships have not been modified, but transferred as they were, complete with electronic intelligence collection gear (which the icebreaker also has).

More modestly, FLEC has received just one ship:

Type 636 hydrographical research ship 871 LI SIGUANG ex Hai Yang 18, now Yu Zheng 206

But FLEC has formerly received two other ex-PLAN ships:

Type 922 II DALANG submarine salvage ship Nan Jiu 503, now Yu Zheng 311

SHENGLI class tanker Dong You 621, now Yu Zheng 312 (that is the one being converted by Huangpu).

In addition, a number of other PLAN auxiliaries have been operating under cover as FLEC ships in the South China Sea, including most famously Type 904A DANYAO class 888 FUXIANHU, purportedly Yu Zheng 88, and the two other Nansha supply ships, Type 904 DAYUN class 883 DONGTINGHU and 884 JINGPOHU, both using the identity Yu Zheng 21.
Dong Ce 226, now being transferred to CMS, has operated as Yu Zheng 26, while two unidentified tankers are FULIN class Yu Zheng 13 and FUZHOU class Yu Zheng 29.
A good explanation of the missions and roles of CMS and FLEC is found at sinodefence.com:

China Marine Surveillance (CMS) - SinoDefence.com
China Fisheries Law Enforcement Command (FLEC) - SinoDefence.com

sinodefence.com’s ship lists for these two agencies are however very incomplete.

I put out an entry recently on this topic.

China Air and Naval Power: China's recent expansion of Civilian Maritime Force

The 3,000-ton Hai Jian 84 is of course a typo for 83 - which was in the earlier (2005) programme, while sistership Hai Jian 50 was in the 2010 programme.

Originally Posted by franco-russe

The 3,000-ton Hai Jian 84 is of course a typo for 83 - which was in the earlier (2005) programme, while sistership Hai Jian 50 was in the 2010 programme.

more like an errant on my part, I was referring to 50 there, but copied 84 in multiple places.

bbc news says today that a Chinese warship used its fire control radar to lock on a Japanese maritime coast vessel

not good! wonder if it a order from higher command or a lone operator, if the latter then it would be distrubing, there was news that a naval helo pilot refused orders from home ship and flew near a Japan ship few months ago

theres a fine line between confrontation and using "lock-on" on measures, things can very easily get out of hand when you start using these tatics

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

bbc news says today that a Chinese warship used its fire control radar to lock on a Japanese maritime coast vessel

not good! wonder if it a order from higher command or a lone operator, if the latter then it would be distrubing, there was news that a naval helo pilot refused orders from home ship and flew near a Japan ship few months ago

theres a fine line between confrontation and using "lock-on" on measures, things can very easily get out of hand when you start using these tatics

Whether or not a Chinese warship locked on a Japanese vessel would only be known by the Chinese and Japanese. Since both of them haven't mentioned anything about this supposed incident, I would like to call bullsh*t on BBC. They are known for sensationalist sabre-rattling headlines (think back to Tibet) and I find it hard to trust their exclusive article without the backing of other more reliable sources from Japan and China. Plus, I thought it was an unspoken precaution that no naval warships would be used to patrol those islands and only civilian agencies would be sent.

Regarding the incident of the helicopter, it is only RUMOURED that the pilot disobeyed an order; it could be just as likely that he was ordered to continue close-up surveillance of the Japanese ship or he was given permission by his captain to do as he saw fit.

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

there was news that a naval helo pilot refused orders from home ship and flew near a Japan ship few months ago

Only a while back, Chinese soldiers had been accused of being too obedient and too rigid...

Originally Posted by asif iqbal

bbc news says today that a Chinese warship used its fire control radar to lock on a Japanese maritime coast vessel

not good! wonder if it a order from higher command or a lone operator, if the latter then it would be distrubing, there was news that a naval helo pilot refused orders from home ship and flew near a Japan ship few months ago

theres a fine line between confrontation and using "lock-on" on measures, things can very easily get out of hand when you start using these tatics

It happend all the time in the Cold War with the USN and the Soviet Navy.